WiiM Amp Ultra Streaming Amplifier

[Miker 1102]

I feel late to this party. My question may have already been answered and it's likely I missed it in trying to catch up with 22 pages. Please forgive if repeated...

This keeps coming up for me in a search for a casual unit to run 2-ch TV audio through as well as streaming Music. This is not going to be used as a primary system, and no critical listening will take place through this device. I am truly talking about casual parlor entertainment. (Likewise, I am not trying to use this for karaoke or music performance/production.)

Is TV Audio through HDMI or Toslink severely effected by the latency that seems to dominate the conversation?

Is there any other device that would be more friendly to a small casual setup where many Apple products reside? Or can I simply stream over BT and not have to worry about Airplay?

(Denon S670H seems like a decent option, but not great. Likewise the Yamy RX V6A... decent but not great.)

Primary need, as described above, is 2.1 audio for casual TV and Music enjoyment.

Thanks for any input!

The latency is not really an issue in my book. Eversolo makes good devices that are close in price and cover Airplay. I would not call this a critial listening device but its allover casual with room correction and sub control. I think this brand completely understands its audience. Its every day audiophile.

 

[Wade_Garrett]

Agreed. I am using eARC for my TV to amp and there is no notable lag when watching Netflix on my smart tv.

 

[DBA ndreas]

The latency is not really an issue in my book. Eversolo makes good devices that are close in price and cover Airplay. I would not call this a critial listening device but its allover casual with room correction and sub control. I think this brand completely understands its audience. Its every day audiophile.

Why is this not a critical listening device? That‘s why I bought it. Based on my impressions this amp is all I need.

 

[Frank Dernie]

TL;DR all of it but what I did read encapsulates the reasons I went back to listening to CDs and LPs

 

[ViperDom]

I asked wiim about this and if it could be improved in future firmware. They said the latency of all inputs is 50ms but didn't address if it could be improved.

My question to Wiim is: Why would all inputs have the same latency if only the analog requires A/D ?

It works like a charm. I have only issue with latency in Analog imput. I Connect to It a mixer for karaoke purposes but there are big latency (about 50 ms). I contacted support from Wiim and they told me that this latency is due to digital conversion …

This is somewhat conflicting Wiim's "All inputs" response above....
If true then Optical & HDMI would have less latency since there is no A/D contributing to the overall latency.

That test sure looks like it is 100ms when grouped with a Wiim Mini. I'm pretty sensitive to lip sync issues and don't notice anything.

+1
I'm very sensitive to lip sync issues. Like in someone else's home i will say HOLD ON, We need to resolve this (as well as tweaking their hot subwoofer level).
That being said, I currently have a SonyOLED outputting optical to Wiim Ultra and do not notice any sync issues.
My source is the TV's internal apps for hbo/netflix/disney/youtube.

This has me considering three possible conclusions:
A. The systems that ive heard/seen with noticeable latency (specifically sync between lips and vocals) have been excessive well beyond the 50 we're talking about here.
B. There are a number of other factors that simply make this "50ms" a non-issue in practice and more likely a spec nitpick like Qirex comments on below:
C. I am not as sensitive to sync issues as i think i am.

It seems like you're moving the goalposts, the Wiim can't possibly make up for TV response delay and every DSP process takes time, even if it's very little. If there's some test I could do with a PS5 demo or PS plus game I'd be happy to try it. I don't notice any difference versus my old AVR and I've been playing a lot of Ghost of Yotei and Clair Obscur lately which depend on response-timed button press events. That said since it is the system I use every day it's very likely I've just adapted to whatever lag there is.

I suspect a lot of the discussion around lag in gaming overall is similar to "unacceptable" DAC performance here, in that it's generally unperceptable until someone sees a graph or number then they'll yell about some -120dB artifact all day like they can hear it. In the meantime they ignore the 32dB noise floor in their room (let's say network latency is the equivalent for this metaphor)

 

[SoySalsaPicante]

My question to Wiim is: Why would all inputs have the same latency if only the analog requires A/D ?


This is somewhat conflicting Wiim's "All inputs" response above....
If true then Optical & HDMI would have less latency since there is no A/D contributing to the overall latency.


+1
I'm very sensitive to lip sync issues. Like in someone else's home i will say HOLD ON, We need to resolve this (as well as tweaking their hot subwoofer level).
That being said, I currently have a SonyOLED outputting optical to Wiim Ultra and do not notice any sync issues.
My source is the TV's internal apps for hbo/netflix/disney/youtube.

This has me considering three possible conclusions:
A. The systems that ive heard/seen with noticeable latency (specifically sync between lips and vocals) have been excessive well beyond the 50 we're talking about here.
B. There are a number of other factors that simply make this "50ms" a non-issue in practice and more likely a spec nitpick like Qirex comments on below:
C. I am not as sensitive to sync issues as i think i am.

So there's different places where lag would be inherent and they manifest differently. Take an example where you have an initial source (let's use a Game Console as an example), which is connected to the TV via ARC, then the TV's ARC output attaches to a WiiM's ARC input. There is a certain (potential) delay between the Game Console and the TV downstream, and then separately another potential delay between the TV and the WiiM. If you have, say, a 150ms delay between what shows up on the TV screen from when it is initially transmitted from the Game Console to when it actually shows on the screen, and then another 50ms delay between when the TV processes the image to the display and when the WiiM processes the audio from the TV to the speakers, then your audio only has a 50ms delay versus the screen (so seemingly little to no lip sync issue at all), but there is now a 200ms delay between game controller input and actual sound heard. Consequentially, there is also a 200ms delay between when you tell your race car to turn versus when it starts to turn, or there is 200ms after your opponent fires a shot at you before you see/hear it coming. That extra 150ms delay may not necessarily be inherent to the ARC output of the gaming console, but potentially from the way the TV handles ARC processing.

In other words, if one person gets a 50ms delay between their TV and WiiM via ARC, and another person has a different model TV, they may have a totally different delay even if they have the same game console up front. ARC is just difficult this way.

 

[qirex]

In other words, if one person gets a 50ms delay between their TV and WiiM via ARC, and another person has a different model TV, they may have a totally different delay even if they have the same game console up front. ARC is just difficult this way.

I definitely have had a few ARC issues since going from an AVR to using my TV as the video hub, when I got the Wiim I switched to Dolby audio to reduce transcoding but I got occasional cutouts and the like. Since I switched to 2.0 PCM everything has been fine, though.

 

[SoySalsaPicante]

I definitely have had a few ARC issues since going from an AVR to using my TV as the video hub, when I got the Wiim I switched to Dolby audio to reduce transcoding but I got occasional cutouts and the like. Since I switched to 2.0 PCM everything has been fine, though.

I concur with this experience on my end as well; forcing PCM in my Apple TV 4K and my TV set for ARC has generally made things more reliable and consistent.

 

[monsterlag]

I concur with this experience on my end as well; forcing PCM in my Apple TV 4K and my TV set for ARC has generally made things more reliable and consistent.

Wiim Amp Ultra is not a replacement for a Receiver.

 

[harkpabst]

Wiim Amp Ultra is not a replacement for a Receiver.

Obviously it is for @qirex, right?

 

[dominikz]

My question to Wiim is: Why would all inputs have the same latency if only the analog requires A/D ?

In my experience, ADC and DAC affects passthrough latency minimally in most cases (i.e. just a few ms).
It is the digital buffers which in my experience contribute the bulk of the passthrough latency in a digital device, and a buffer would in this case apply equally to any input.

To illustrate, if I look at the spec sheet of my RME Babyface, at 44.1kHz sample rate the ADC adds only 1ms and DAC adds 0.6ms additional latency.
But a 2048 sample buffer adds 46ms on top of that (2048/44.1kHz=46.4ms).

 

[Miker 1102]

Why is this not a critical listening device? That‘s why I bought it. Based on my impressions this amp is all I need.

I think this a great device for listening overall. Its does a great job in my room. I would never complain if my set up consisted of this amp I think my experience with critical listening leans more on having an analog section and not D class amplifiers. I consider that a privileged preference.

 

[harkpabst]

I think this a great device for listening overall. Its does a great job in my room. I would never complain if my set up consisted of this amp I think my experience with critical listening leans more on having an analog section and not D class amplifiers. I consider that a privileged preference.

My analog gear ist collecting dust while I do all my (very! ) critical listening through digital devices.

 

[Limopard]

Had a 10 % discount and bought an Amp Ultra. My old Wiim Amp found its way to my older son who recently moved into his own apartment. (Yes, I do feel old yet...)
A really nice device, does everything well. The display and the metal remote are a nice upgrade. The sound isn't worse at least, an A/B comparision is nearly impossible to do.

One thing bugs me: When the TV is connected by HDMI ARC every time the TV is switched on, the HDMI input becomes active and the TV speakers are shut off. Even with auto sense switched off this behaviour remains. Pulling the plug is the only thing that helps.

By the way: A Fosi DS2 connected to the USB is a very nice replacement for the missing headphone out.

 

[Descartes]

What do you use to stream AirPlay 2?

 

[monsterlag]

What do you use to stream AirPlay 2?

You can group other Wiim devices with it to get Airplay. I group it with my Wiim amp that’s in my office but you can just use a Wiim Mini.

 

[Descartes]

You can group other Wiim devices with it to get Airplay. I group it with my Wiim amp that’s in my office but you can just use a Wiim Mini.

How do you group them? Do both need to play at the same time? I have an original WiiM Amp

 

[monsterlag]

How do you group them? Do both need to play at the same time? I have an original WiiM Amp

Grouping them is an option in the app and you have to play at the same time. You can also use an Apple TV hooked upto the Wiim Ultra. I do both.

 

[harkpabst]

How do you group them? Do both need to play at the same time? I have an original WiiM Amp

The chain icon on the device card allows to created ad-hoc groups consisting of multiple WiiM devices. One device is the group leader, the others are followers.

The volume can be controlled independently. So, if you stream AirPlay 2 to your WiiM Amp, grouped to your WiiM Ultra, the speakers connected to the WiiM Amp can remain silent.

You can also defined permanent "named groups". This is mostly helpful for people owning multiple WiiM devices.

 

[Indydan]

I bought the Wiim Amp Ultra a few months ago. Is it all you need? I would say so.
I had a very expensive audio system made up of a Naim integrated amp and Naim streamer. The little Wiim replaced both of the Naim boxes. The sound quality is at least 90% as good as the much more expensive Naim system.
I am starting to believe that high end expensive audio is somewhat of a scam. You are not getting what you pay for.