WiiM Amp Ultra Streaming Amplifier

[chelgrian]

Neither is Roon, but that also claims to interoperate with AirPlay.

You can read the tea leaves, it only supports transmitting AirPlay 1 natively in Roon, this was reverse engineered in 2008 by Jon Lech Johansen aka ‘DVD Jon’ who has also responsible for DeCSS.

It can only use AirPlay 2 on macOS and iOS where it is playing back using a system audio device that happens to be an AirPlay 2 device.

 

[harkpabst]

I don't know the ins and outs of AirPlay so could be missing the details. It does read a bit ambiguously, especially around AirPlay 2. As I understand it they're using reverse engineered AirPlay like the open source options, presumably limiting themselves to the parts that aren't still covered by patents unless they're getting the benefit of some patent deal between Apple and Samsung. The AirPlay 2 side has lagged on the open source side so maybe Roon don't have full coverage either.

Turns out I was wrong about the limitation of not being able to redistrubute an incoming AirPlay stream using a different multi-room protocol, anyway.

Against my memory, those WiiM devices supporting AirPlay obviously can transmit the audio to a wireless group of other WiiM devices, says this Help Center article:

Limitations and Considerations of WiiM Multi-room Music

This tutorial will explain the limitations and considerations of WiiM Multi-room music, created through the WiiM Home App. Limitations When streaming WiiM Multiple-room music using any of the following protocols, only one group lead WiiM ...

faq.wiimhome.com

Not using the WiiM Amp Ultra, of course.

 

[Prowler_88]

A completely different, class-AB amplifier.

I’m trying to understand how power is measured with these Class D vs Class AB amps.

I have had a CXA81 in my living room with a range of speakers and never gone above half way on the volume dial as it’s too loud - earsplitting with complaints from the neighbours loud and without sounding shouty or lifeless. Just picked up one of these and paired it with fairly easy to drive Monitor Audio floorstanders. The sound is lifeless below about 35% and still not really there at 60%.

What am I missing? I could happily operate a party outside with the Cambridge at 50% but the Wiim just seems to have nothing in comparison.

Please don’t shoot me; I’m just trying to understand what’s happening before I give up and chop this back in. I’d rather not as it’s easy to use, compact, convenient for the family and has EQ I can play with. The measurements suggest this has plenty of power, but measurements be damned if it can’t actually power my speakers in-room!

 

[Mort]

I have a minidsp flex digital - no analog just stereo toslink output. I want to use it with the Wiim streamer and the amp output but have the minidsp flex "in between" to do bass management and DSP.

Can I use the spdif out to the minidsp flex digital and then back to the Wiim and out the amp?

No right? You can't have two outputs.

 

[SoySalsaPicante]

I have a minidsp flex digital - no analog just stereo toslink output. I want to use it with the Wiim streamer and the amp output but have the minidsp flex "in between" to do bass management and DSP.

Can I use the spdif out to the minidsp flex digital and then back to the Wiim and out the amp?

No right? You can't have two outputs.

That’s not possible. Need to use an external downstream from the miniDSP; the WiiM Amp Ultra won’t output to the miniDSP simultaneously while taking separate input and delivering it to the amp circuit.

 

[antcollinet]

I’m trying to understand how power is measured with these Class D vs Class AB amps.

I have had a CXA81 in my living room with a range of speakers and never gone above half way on the volume dial as it’s too loud - earsplitting with complaints from the neighbours loud and without sounding shouty or lifeless. Just picked up one of these and paired it with fairly easy to drive Monitor Audio floorstanders. The sound is lifeless below about 35% and still not really there at 60%.

What am I missing? I could happily operate a party outside with the Cambridge at 50% but the Wiim just seems to have nothing in comparison.

Please don’t shoot me; I’m just trying to understand what’s happening before I give up and chop this back in. I’d rather not as it’s easy to use, compact, convenient for the family and has EQ I can play with. The measurements suggest this has plenty of power, but measurements be damned if it can’t actually power my speakers in-room!

Don't confuse power with gain.


Traditional amps have much lower sensitivity figures (higher gain) than more modern class D designs. A hangover from when analogue sources didn't put out much voltage.

Your CXA 81:

INPUT SENSITIVITY
Input A1-A4 (unbalanced) 370mV RMS

For a 80 W into 8ohm amp that is a gain of about 37dB - compared with a typical gain for a modern amp designed for 2V sources of about 25dB

That means it only needs 0.37V to drive it to full power. With a source that outputs 2V, that means you need to turn the volume down much more than with a lower gain amp.

An amp with 25dB gain needs 12dB higher (4x more) input voltage to deliver the same power. It doesn't mean the amp is less powerful. With the same input voltage, you may need to turn your wiim amp close to maximum to get full output power. With your CXA81 that might need only "half" volume on the dial - but then if you turn it up higher, you drive it into clipping and distortion.

 

[Prowler_88]

Don't confuse power with gain.


Traditional amps have much lower sensitivity figures (higher gain) than more modern class D designs. A hangover from when analogue sources didn't put out much voltage.

Your CXA 81:

INPUT SENSITIVITY
Input A1-A4 (unbalanced) 370mV RMS

For a 80 W into 8ohm amp that is a gain of about 37dB - compared with a typical gain for a modern amp designed for 2V sources of about 25dB

That means it only needs 0.37V to drive it to full power. With a source that outputs 2V, that means you need to turn the volume down much more than with a lower gain amp.

An amp with 25dB gain needs 12dB higher (4x more) input voltage to deliver the same power. It doesn't mean the amp is less powerful. With the same input voltage, you may need to turn your wiim amp close to maximum to get full output power. With your CXA81 that might need only "half" volume on the dial - but then if you turn it up higher, you drive it into clipping and distortion.

The inputs aren't analogue though, they're both digital; a Wiim Mini (toslink) into the CXA and the onboard streaming platform on the Ultra.

Are you suggesting the CXA will run into clipping when doing its own DAC and amplification with a digital source, whereas the Ultra won't?

 

[antcollinet]

The inputs aren't analogue though, they're both digital; a Wiim Mini (toslink) into the CXA and the onboard streaming platform on the Ultra.

Are you suggesting the CXA will run into clipping when doing its own DAC and amplification with a digital source, whereas the Ultra won't?

It is true, we don't know what voltage the internal DAC in the CXA is putting out - though I'd be surprised if it were as low as 0.37V - I'd not be surprised for it to output a standard 2V as an external DAC. You could measure it on the pre-out if you are interested. This is almost certainly the same signal fed to the internal power amp.


Both amps will clip if they are driven with enough volts to push them past their power limit. It is just that this is at a lower voltage with the CXA 81.

 

[Shrek6]

I really hope wiim will consider stereo sub out or even proper 2.2 crossover

From the last roadmap they posted:

• Discrete Dual Subwoofer Control: Independent calibration and management for two subwoofers to smooth out room modes.

Not sure how this works with one sub out…

---

It’s annoying how every thread about a WiiM product devolves into complaints and speculations over the lack of Airplay. It doesn’t have Airplay, get over it.

There should be more complaints about the high latency rather than a missing feature that can be remedied with $30 raspberry pi…

 

[SoySalsaPicante]

From the last roadmap they posted:

• Discrete Dual Subwoofer Control: Independent calibration and management for two subwoofers to smooth out room modes.

Not sure how this works with one sub out…

---

It’s annoying how every thread about a WiiM product devolves into complaints and speculations over the lack of Airplay. It doesn’t have Airplay, get over it.

There should be more complaints about the high latency rather than a missing feature that can be remedied with $30 raspberry pi…

Well there are multiple ways they could implement that. In my opinion, the best way is that if you attach a DAC to one of the digital outputs, then the RCA line outs become sub outs. A second way would be that the only way to do multi-sub is with WiiM subwoofers.

 

[harkpabst]

No right? You can't have two outputs.

Even if you could activate two outputs at the same time this wouldn't work. You would need explicit "pre-out" and "power-in" connections to have the miniDSP in the loop. So the answer is still no.

 

[Pauper]

I’m trying to understand how power is measured with these Class D vs Class AB amps.

I have had a CXA81 in my living room with a range of speakers and never gone above half way on the volume dial as it’s too loud - earsplitting with complaints from the neighbours loud and without sounding shouty or lifeless. Just picked up one of these and paired it with fairly easy to drive Monitor Audio floorstanders. The sound is lifeless below about 35% and still not really there at 60%.

What am I missing? I could happily operate a party outside with the Cambridge at 50% but the Wiim just seems to have nothing in comparison.

Please don’t shoot me; I’m just trying to understand what’s happening before I give up and chop this back in. I’d rather not as it’s easy to use, compact, convenient for the family and has EQ I can play with. The measurements suggest this has plenty of power, but measurements be damned if it can’t actually power my speakers in-room!

Well, what a coincidence!… I have a Cambridge CXA61 and like you have purchased this WiiM. Your findings are exactly like mine. At low volume the Cambridge wins. The WiiM needs to be louder to come on song, and when it does it’s good. I suppose being 74 doesn’t make me the ideal Guinea pig but I have also had to attenuate the 4k setting in the equaliser as it was sounding a tad sharp on female voices. I’ve not done double blind testing but when listening at my ideal levels , I can’t tell any difference between the two , other than the said 4k peakiness which could be an age thing - don’t know.

 

[Matt_Holland]

Well, what a coincidence!… I have a Cambridge CXA61 and like you have purchased this WiiM. Your findings are exactly like mine. At low volume the Cambridge wins. The WiiM needs to be louder to come on song, and when it does it’s good. I suppose being 74 doesn’t make me the ideal Guinea pig but I have also had to attenuate the 4k setting in the equaliser as it was sounding a tad sharp on female voices. I’ve not done double blind testing but when listening at my ideal levels , I can’t tell any difference between the two , other than the said 4k peakiness which could be an age thing - don’t know.

By “at low volume” do you mean the actual SPL measured or just the arbitrary volume setting?

Also worth noting that Wiim allow maximum volume to be used safely on their amps. Many other products allow you to get into audible distortion within their operating volume range.

I have a feeling people think the Wiim products don’t “come alive” until they’re played louder, when in reality it’s a psychological bias caused by having to use high volume settings to achieve the same SPL compared to other amps.

Edited to add: you can adjust the pre-gain in the Wiim’s audio input settings. Maybe try increasing that for your sources.

 

[somebodyelse]

• Discrete Dual Subwoofer Control: Independent calibration and management for two subwoofers to smooth out room modes.

Not sure how this works with one sub out…

You mean one dedicated analog coax sub out - they can still sync with their wireless subs, or allow other channels (toslink, USB etc.) to be used as sub outs. I don't know what they're using nternally, but PipeWire on linux should be able to keep them in sync.

 

[antcollinet]

Well, what a coincidence!… I have a Cambridge CXA61 and like you have purchased this WiiM. Your findings are exactly like mine. At low volume the Cambridge wins. The WiiM needs to be louder to come on song, and when it does it’s good. I suppose being 74 doesn’t make me the ideal Guinea pig but I have also had to attenuate the 4k setting in the equaliser as it was sounding a tad sharp on female voices. I’ve not done double blind testing but when listening at my ideal levels , I can’t tell any difference between the two , other than the said 4k peakiness which could be an age thing - don’t know.

Again:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-ultra-streaming-amplifier.68501/post-2491287

 

[Pauper]

By “at low volume” do you mean the actual SPL measured or just the arbitrary volume setting?

Also worth noting that Wiim allow maximum volume to be used safely on their amps. Many other products allow you to get into audible distortion within their operating volume range.

I have a feeling people think the Wiim products don’t “come alive” until they’re played louder, when in reality it’s a psychological bias caused by having to use high volume settings to achieve the same SPL compared to other amps.

Edited to add: you can adjust the pre-gain in the Wiim’s audio input settings. Maybe try increasing that for your sources.

View attachment 503512

My immediate reaction on first listening was ‘ where has the life gone in the music’ . This was just listening at about the same volume as the Cambridge - not level matched - just my usual , comfortable level. Above that level it came alive. I’m sure, as you and others have/ are going to point out that it’s to do with pre gain settings etc. I hasten to ad that I will be keeping it if only for the convenience it provides.

 

[catch22]

To the owners - a few quick questions:

1. Is the Wiim Amp Ultra always visible in the Spotify app on the phone, even when the amp is sleeping?
2. If yes, does it wake up automatically when selected?
3. Does it switch sources or wake up automatically when, for example, I start playing foobar2000 from my laptop that streams to a UPnP renderer?

I am comparing it to my Yamaha WXA-50, which does all of this. I like the Yamaha a lot, but I have FOMO for not trying the WiiM

 

[kyuu]

To the owners - a few quick questions:

1. Is the Wiim Amp Ultra always visible in the Spotify app on the phone, even when the amp is sleeping?
2. If yes, does it wake up automatically when selected?
3. Does it switch sources or wake up automatically when, for example, I start playing foobar2000 from my laptop that streams to a UPnP renderer?

I am comparing it to my Yamaha WXA-50, which does all of this. I like the Yamaha a lot, but I have FOMO for not trying the WiiM

I only have the regular Amp, not the Ultra, but software-wise they are all pretty much identical. So in my experience:

1) Yes.
2) Yes.
3) Yes.

 

[catch22]

I only have the regular Amp, not the Ultra, but software-wise they are all pretty much identical. So in my experience:

1) Yes.
2) Yes.
3) Yes.

Thank you! Great! One checkbox checked!

Also, sound-wise, will I be better off with
1. Yamaha WXC-50 + Topping Mini 300
2. Wiim Amp Ultra?

 

[kyuu]

Thank you! Great! One checkbox checked!

Also, sound-wise, will I be better off with
1. Yamaha WXC-50 + Topping Mini 300
2. Wiim Amp Ultra?

Sound quality will be identical either way, with the following caveats:

1) Wiim Amp Ultra has more power, though whether that will make any difference depends on your setup and listening habits. It generally doesn't hurt to have more power, however.
2) Wiim products give you a built-in 10 band PEQ and room correction, which can make a big difference to sound quality.