Wifi VS Ethernet for streaming quality

[EJ3]

Wow interesting, hadn't heard of Saipan & Guam so have just been googling them!

The weather is great there. But you have typhoons on an annual basis (maybe not a direct hit but even then, pretty annoying).
And, a lot of times, if it is not raining where you are, it will be raining where you are going (even if it is only 2 miles away). But, in an hour it will not be raining where you went to and will be raining were you came from.
There is, however a definite rainy season (no, not rain all day, every day; just more rain than during the dry season. And the dry season does not mean no rain at all, just not as much as during the rainy season [the difference is noticeable, however]).
Saipan has been in the Guinness Book of World records for the leas amount of daily average temperature change (8 degrees F daily [ex. if it's 75 F degrees {a very low winter temperature there}] in the early morning, the high temp of the day will be 83 F degrees). The peak, middle of the day summer temp is usually less than 95 F (low of 87 F at night).
Back to the subject at hand
WIFI (at the time I was last there in 2018) you could not download a movie, as the satellite connection was limited in band width for what it could handle and the amount of people that have cell phones and WIFI (the cell phone connections also sometimes went out because the cell companies oversold what they were capable of doing [one would have great throughput because it did not have many customers, over a year, many would switch to it, it would become sluggish, the others would become more reliable, people would switch again and the process just repeated itself. Ethernet did not help except for connecting to your gear within your domicile, as it did not get sluggish until it left your domicile.
Weather effect on internet WIFI and otherwise: Typhoon Soudelor:
The system strengthened slowly at first before entering a period of rapid intensification on August 2. Soudelor made landfall on Saipan later that day, causing extensive damage. Owing to favorable environmental conditions, the typhoon further deepened and reached its peak intensity with ten-minute maximum sustained winds of 215 km/h (130 mph) and a central atmospheric pressure of 900 hPa (mbar; 26.58 inHg) on August 3. The Joint Typhoon Warning Center assessed one-minute sustained winds at 285 km/h (180 mph), making Soudelor a Category 5-equivalent super typhoon.
I was there: We had one gust that registered 223 HPH and quite a few over 200 MPH. There were only 3 spare telephone pole type mounted transformers and 10 spare telephone poles on the island. But 175 telephone poles went down (a high percentage of those where ones that had transformers mounted on them).
Power, internet, etc was down basically island wide for 4 months (no gas for cars, generators whatever). Personnel on ships were taking aboard peoples laundry to do and sending ice and food to the people on the island.
So, it can get inconvenient for any kind of connectivity, unless you have your own StarLink (which, at that time, was not a possibility).
Kind of like the connectivity I have at my place out in the country. But I have 30 amps at 120V electric power (although, a downed tree or tree limb could stop that).

 

[rcstevensonaz]

By the way... I've never had a cable fail

You just haven't used enough cables yet.

 

[Digital_Thor]

You just haven't used enough cables yet.

I was referring to Ethernet cables I definitely ruined other cables during my creative lifetime so far

 

[Indydan]

I brought up this same subject on the Naim forums.
One poster actually said he gets better sound quality with ethernet. He claims Wifi "flattens the soundstage". I kid you not.
More audiophile BS!

 

[kyuu]

I brought up this same subject on the Naim forums.
One poster actually said he gets better sound quality with ethernet. He claims Wifi "flattens the soundstage". I kid you not.
More audiophile BS!

Well yeah I mean wi-fi is just a radio so of course it makes the music sound like it's coming out of a 1930's-era radio.

 

[gwing]

Incorrect. Anyone who knows how data and networking actually work knows that this is nonsense. Either the bits get delivered or they don't. If the wi-fi is unreliable enough and the bits don't get delivered in time, then you have a problem. It's not subtle changes to the sound, however. It's drop outs or the stream simply stopping.

Please be more restrained throwing around words like nonsense , or claiming superior networking knowledge when you know nothing about the experience and qualifications of other posters.

Your original claim was to have disproved the claim that "ethernet is better than wifi" which you helpfully emphasised in bold to make clear what your claim was. Now it is true that digital transport isn't subject to the usual audiophile/musicality judgements and the digital transport either works or doesn't and the bits either get there or not but your sample of 1 ethernet network where you perceive no difference does not provide any proof for other folk's networks who's musical listening experience, particularly over wifi, can be affected by dropouts/pauses in the stream or even connection loss. Then again, if your home network is more complex having multiple network segments and wifi networks, you may find that streaming over wifi is not fully routed and you can only stream to devices actually on the same wifi network, unlike wired ethernet which is more fully routable.

I recommend you google a phrase like "wifi collision delay" and have a read of some of the articles that come up for a better understanding of the issues.

 

[amper42]

Would love to switch between ethernet and a WiFi 6 connection without the user knowing. I don't believe it could be detected by a single listener.

 

[rcstevensonaz]

Would love to switch between ethernet and a WiFi 6 connection without the user knowing. I don't believe it could be detected by a single listener.

You just succinctly restated what everyone on this thread has been saying from the very first post.

The change would be absolutely undetectable, provided the Wi-Fi network is operating within acceptable parameters. That has been true for a very long time, and Wi-Fi is becoming increasingly reliable with changes to Wi-Fi 6 and 7 (e.g., adaptive spectrum management). So for the vast majority of people, the Wi-Fi network will be operating without any issues.

 

[Cogito]

I upgraded to wifi6, but turns out the far corner of my house is still only reachable by 2.4GHz at 6 to 20mbps.

Time to install a WIFI repeater/extender. SUPER cheap nowadays.

 

[kyuu]

Please be more restrained throwing around words like nonsense , or claiming superior networking knowledge when you know nothing about the experience and qualifications of other posters.

Your original claim was to have disproved the claim that "ethernet is better than wifi" which you helpfully emphasised in bold to make clear what your claim was. Now it is true that digital transport isn't subject to the usual audiophile/musicality judgements and the digital transport either works or doesn't and the bits either get there or not but your sample of 1 ethernet network where you perceive no difference does not provide any proof for other folk's networks who's musical listening experience, particularly over wifi, can be affected by dropouts/pauses in the stream or even connection loss. Then again, if your home network is more complex having multiple network segments and wifi networks, you may find that streaming over wifi is not fully routed and you can only stream to devices actually on the same wifi network, unlike wired ethernet which is more fully routable.

I literally cannot understand how what any of you said somehow contradicts my previous statements in any way.

I recommend you google a phrase like "wifi collision delay" and have a read of some of the articles that come up for a better understanding of the issues.

I do radios and networking (amongst other things) for a living, but thanks for the advice I guess.

 

[Berwhale]

I brought up this same subject on the Naim forums.
One poster actually said he gets better sound quality with ethernet. He claims Wifi "flattens the soundstage". I kid you not.
More audiophile BS!

It makes sense. The MAC headers are 50% bigger on a Wi-fi frame than on Ethernet frame, obviously this leaves less space for the data and therefore the sound will get flattened as its squeezed into the available space

 

[Berwhale]

Then again, if your home network is more complex having multiple network segments and wifi networks, you may find that streaming over wifi is not fully routed and you can only stream to devices actually on the same wifi network, unlike wired ethernet which is more fully routable.

Ethernet and Wi-Fi operate in the Physical and Data Link layers of the OSI model, routing happens in the Network layer. i.e. Wi-Fi and Ethernet protocols have nothing to do with routing.

For example, my home network includes Ethernet running at both 1gbps and 2.5gbps, OM3 fibre running at 10G and a Wi-Fi 6 mesh network with 3 access points. The only thing doing any routing is my pfSense firewall...

 

[rcstevensonaz]

Ethernet and Wi-Fi operate in the Physical and Data Link layers of the OSI model, routing happens in the Network layer. i.e. Wi-Fi and Ethernet protocols have nothing to do with routing.

That isn't the issue.

Rather, the issue is that many Wi-Fi devices operate as their own subnet where the Wi-Fi router is acting as a DHCP server. That is, the WiFi station is assigning IP addresses on what is essentially a separate subnet from those devices that are connected by ethernet to the main router.

This issue can commonly arise when your Wi-Fi station is separate from the cable modem / main router. This issue can also typically be solved by setting your Wi-Fi to act as a bridge (i.e., don't become a DHCP server to the devices connecting by Wi-Fi).

[Edit: correction, your diagram shows that your wireless access points are all acting as switches (bridges), which is essentially what my point was as well. But that isn't the default configuration for most consumer Wi-Fi devices, which are almost always configured to act as their owner router / DHCP servier to the wireless devices.]

 

[Digital_Thor]

I brought up this same subject on the Naim forums.
One poster actually said he gets better sound quality with ethernet. He claims Wifi "flattens the soundstage". I kid you not.
More audiophile BS!

Oh, we believe you If people can't have the intelligence and knowledge to marvel at how fantastic it is that we made all these great products, and actually just enjoy them.... then they come up with senseless idiocy, which we never really needed - because why not just do something about the room, the speakers, the acoustics - you know - the stuff that really matters way more - because (IMO) - a lot of people would rather use 80% of their time to try and solve 20% of their troubles, rather than find peace of mind, learn and use available tools and move on to the whole point of HIFI - listening to music.
My grandmother once said - "worrying is like a rocking chair - it keeps you busy - but leads you nowhere". And maybe this is what a lot of so-called audiophiles really wish to do, keep busy, and never really finish - because, then you're done - and then what?

I've had this streamer for years:
www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-allo-digione-rpi-s-pdif.5418/
I have never thought of any reason to worry about anything, except updating the picoreplayer on its SD card, to finetune functionality, but sound quality is always good.

 

[kyuu]

[Edit: correction, your diagram shows that your wireless access points are all acting as switches (bridges), which is essentially what my point was as well. But that isn't the default configuration for most consumer Wi-Fi devices, which are almost always configured to act as their owner router / DHCP servier to the wireless devices.]

IME, the vast majority of domestic setups either have an all-in-one gateway (modem, router, wi-fi, etc. all in the same device), or have a standalone modem from the ISP going to a wi-fi router. Somewhat more savvy users might have the ISP's gateway set to bridge mode going to their own wi-fi router, or vice versa. I've never seen a setup where someone actually has multiple DHCP servers and subnets at home, asides from possibly network professionals who like having an overcomplicated setup to mess around with.

 

[Berwhale]

That isn't the issue.

Rather, the issue is that many Wi-Fi devices operate as their own subnet where the Wi-Fi router is acting as a DHCP server. That is, the WiFi station is assigning IP addresses on what is essentially a separate subnet from those devices that are connected by ethernet to the main router.

This issue can commonly arise when your Wi-Fi station is separate from the cable modem / main router. This issue can also typically be solved by setting your Wi-Fi to act as a bridge (i.e., don't become a DHCP server to the devices connecting by Wi-Fi).

You can have exactly the same problem you describe with two Ethernet routers controlling separate subnets on a wired network (where you might end up defining static routes to fix the issue). It's still got nothing to do with mixing Ethernet and Wi-Fi.

 

[Berwhale]

[Edit: correction, your diagram shows that your wireless access points are all acting as switches (bridges), which is essentially what my point was as well. But that isn't the default configuration for most consumer Wi-Fi devices, which are almost always configured to act as their owner router / DHCP servier to the wireless devices.]

There is no default configuration on my Asus kit, you pick 'Router' or 'Access Point' mode (amongst others) when you first set them up. If you are talking about the kit that's provided by an ISP, then that is a different matter as that is usually relatively fixed in it's configuration (however this still has nothing to do with Wi-Fi and Ethernet standards).

 

[Berwhale]

IME, the vast majority of domestic setups either have an all-in-one gateway (modem, router, wi-fi, etc. all in the same device), or have a standalone modem from the ISP going to a wi-fi router. Somewhat more savvy users might have the ISP's gateway set to bridge mode going to their own wi-fi router, or vice versa. I've never seen a setup where someone actually has multiple DHCP servers and subnets at home, asides from possibly network professionals who like having an overcomplicated setup to mess around with.

Indeed, although an enthusiastic amateur may want to setup multiple VLANs to isolate traffic from IoT devices (TVs, smart speakers, etc.) from their 'main' network for security reasons. I haven't gone down this route yet as my Asus APs do not support VLAN tagging (at least, not without a great deal of hacking) and i'm waiting to upgrade them to something a bit more 'enterprise' with native VLAN tagging capability.

 

[Digital_Thor]

Best thing for most people, IMO, is to consider their nice to have vs need to have. Any sales guy or woman, would happily sell you anything, as long as you pay up.
This is an intelligent and experienced forum, and should never be about how Wi-Fi or cable is always best or worst. Rather - IMO - it should be about the individual user and his or hers case. What-ever solution works for that person - is the best - within budget, complexity and functionality restrains, of course.
Quite a few people say "oh, your system sound nice", but then they realize the complexity, time, experience and hardship that went into it.... and they quickly back off.
It's all a balancing act, and some people will never need, what others could never live without.

 

[Berwhale]

Personally, I use wired where I can and wireless where I don't want to, or can't, run a cable. However, I did flood wire my house with CAT5e when I moved in almost 20 years ago, so this decision is easier for me than most others.