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WIDE OPEN ROOM ENTRANCE - Consequences for bass frequencies etc? (PHOTOS within)

Axo1989

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Also, interesting thread, thanks for details. Plans were done when you had the room set-up/treated?
 
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MattHooper

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Also, interesting thread, thanks for details. Plans were done when you had the room set-up/treated?

Hi. I'm not exactly clear on your question, but the plans were made for the room reno via a team effort - my ideas and goals, working with an architect and an acoustician giving advice.

For instance if you look at the third room photo you can see part of the ceiling. We did a thick build-down of the ceiling which is actually a stretched fabric (even though it looks solid) which allowed the placement and concealment of traps/absorption placed at various points.
Similarly, there is some bass trapping hidden in to the corners of the room to the rear of the speakers. Stuff like that.

What is interesting it how many guests comment on the "sound of the room." People say 'wow, it sounds so clear in hear, listen to our voices' kind of thing. It really worked out well for audio - the sound is so clear yet un-fatiguing.
 

dshreter

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I know it’s not your stated intention in the thread, but it is peculiar not to measure the in room response when you’ve clearly put so much effort into both the equipment and the room. The interaction of a speaker with a space is too complex to manage theoretically instead of empirically. And you spend enough time in this site to know your ears aren’t all that effective at judging the frequency response.

Is there a reason you have chosen not to pick up a mic and work with REW?
 
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MattHooper

MattHooper

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I know it’s not your stated intention in the thread, but it is peculiar not to measure the in room response when you’ve clearly put so much effort into both the equipment and the room. The interaction of a speaker with a space is too complex to manage theoretically instead of empirically. And you spend enough time in this site to know your ears aren’t all that effective at judging the frequency response.

Is there a reason you have chosen not to pick up a mic and work with REW?

I understand the question, given this is a site where many members love to measure things, and get their hands dirty with such software and hardware.

Various reasons...one being the complexity of the room is such that I'm essentially "maxed out" on anything I could do in terms of room treatment and speaker positioning. The speaker placement also has restrictions insofar as they can't block the projection screen either. So chasing around room nodes that way is limited. Why not use DSP? One reason is I don't care to add the complexity, but another is that my two channel system is my "analog" system, as it were, on which I play mostly vinyl (tube amps and all that) and I don't care to digitize everything (even if transparent, it's sort of a conceptual purity I guess you could say). But the biggest reason is I'm simply not motivated to because I find my system sounds fantastic. I can plop down various speakers in roughly the same place and they all sound great, so I haven't anything really driving me to say "I've got to measure all this and digitize the signal and use DSP..." etc. In fact, it's because I find it sounds so nice it had me wondering about the role played by that room opening.

I DID try DSP for a while when I incorporated subwoofers, to get the most even bass. But as I mentioned earlier, I didn't ultimately care for the addition of the subwoofers. I prefer a simpler set up.
 

Axo1989

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Hi. I'm not exactly clear on your question, but the plans were made for the room reno via a team effort - my ideas and goals, working with an architect and an acoustician giving advice.

For instance if you look at the third room photo you can see part of the ceiling. We did a thick build-down of the ceiling which is actually a stretched fabric (even though it looks solid) which allowed the placement and concealment of traps/absorption placed at various points.
Similarly, there is some bass trapping hidden in to the corners of the room to the rear of the speakers. Stuff like that.

What is interesting it how many guests comment on the "sound of the room." People say 'wow, it sounds so clear in hear, listen to our voices' kind of thing. It really worked out well for audio - the sound is so clear yet un-fatiguing.
Yes, that was my question. I did notice the ceiling already. Indeed interesting that people notice sound clarity (they should) even though they are likely not cognisant of the treatment.

Re bass and openings. My listening space is (temporarily) in a mezzanine above a larger space. Speakers are in the corners (more or less) and the wall behind the listening position is actually fully open to the space below. The longitudinal bass modes correspond precisely to the dimensions of the larger open space, not the mezzanine (which is half the overall room length).

Re measurements, I used them when locating the speakers. To avoid relevant (lateral/axial/oblique) modes converging around 70 -80 Hz and mitigate a strong null—I moved them laterally in 200 mm increments toward the side walls so the null reduced, but stopped when the treble started to deteriorate. Fortunately my speakers (4-way no extra subs) image well when set a little wide and toed-in. For the long modes especially (there isn't enough mezzanine floor length to play with speaker-wise) I employ DSP on the Mac which is the digital source (no analog source just now) which simply runs Sonarworks full-range, no tweaky madness. I sympathise with your desire to keep a lid on complexity.
 

Tim Link

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As a seller of TubeTraps that are recommend for placement in the room corners behind the speakers, the opening should have some significant benefits from my way of thinking. Bass energy tends to get trapped in the front of the room, and not just at modes. It's a broad band effect that muddies the mid bass. The opening should cut that way down and make for better sound. Stereo imagining unevenness is a potential concern any time the front of the room is asymmetrical but it's hard to predict how audible it will be. I'm always surprised to see setups where the speakers are tight up against a wall on one side and nothing for 20 or more feet on the other and yet the owner of the system is reporting no stereo imaging issues.
 
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Tim Link

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On non-rectangular rooms - it may be true that they still have modes and they are more difficult to calculate. But, parallel surface modes tend to be stronger than obliques, or sets of smaller parallel surfaces that are broken up with openings. If there is a lack of wall to wall parallel surfaces it stands to reason the modes will be less bothersome. As Geddes pointed out, modes are unpredictable even in standard rectangular rooms because structural resonances and leakages have to be accounted for. And modes aren't necessarily the problem they're made out to be. You can only stimulate and hear all of them if the speaker is played from a tri-corner of the room and you put your head in another tri-corner. Modes take a while to stimulate so a lot of music with fast bass lines never really lights them up. You need reasonably long bass notes to really get them going. Organ music. A good room mode can add considerable drama to some organ music.
 

Open Mind Audio

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Revisiting this thread, I'm very impressed with how you've mapped out a design to get the most out of a small, historically-dimensioned room with a fireplace. We just moved to Baltimore from Texas, and the proliferation of fireplaces in the 1880-1920s era homes has been a bit of a shock as we check out houses and I consider listening room options. This is inspiring to see how you pulled it off with some dedicated focus.

And kudos to your partner for embracing it.

How far are the speakers from the listening position, and what are the sound qualities that led to that choice? It doesn't quite look like the classic isosceles triangle from the photos, but it obviously works well for you.

PS - I mention the fireplaces because in so many rooms their placement totally complicates the audio placement options.
 
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MattHooper

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Revisiting this thread, I'm very impressed with how you've mapped out a design to get the most out of a small, historically-dimensioned room with a fireplace. We just moved to Baltimore from Texas, and the proliferation of fireplaces in the 1880-1920s era homes has been a bit of a shock as we check out houses and I consider listening room options. This is inspiring to see how you pulled it off with some dedicated focus.

And kudos to your partner for embracing it.

How far are the speakers from the listening position, and what are the sound qualities that led to that choice? It doesn't quite look like the classic isosceles triangle from the photos, but it obviously works well for you.

PS - I mention the fireplaces because in so many rooms their placement totally complicates the audio placement options.

Thanks for the comment Open Mind Audio!

As mentioned in an earlier post, before putting the projection screen in there, my listenig position was the reverse - sofa against screen wall facing the bay windows. I have tended to prefer a more immersive sonic experience so between 7 to 8 feet was a typical listening distance for me (sometimes 6 1/2).
When I did the room reno the fact the Right speaker would now be placed somewhere in the walkway in to the room meant I had some restrictions. But thankfully where the speakers "have" to end up, to clear the entrance-way for traffic, is pretty much precisely where I would have placed them anyway.
Well out from the back wall behind them, which I like to smooth out the bass response and about 7 to 8 feet from my listening seat. I play with both the distance between the speakers and with my listening distance. Given the room has acoustic treatment and that big room opening, it seems to handle bass quite well, generally speaking. The portion of the sofa I sit on has big furniture sliders, making it easy to simply slide the seating position back or forwards to get the orientation I want with the speakers.

I often play with room acoustics to get what I want - which includes altering speaker positioning, listen position, and position of curtains along reflection points.
One recent "acoustics hack" I've discovered has been really gratifying. I like to be immersed in the sound, so I tend to move closer to the speakers. But the trade off I usually find is that the sound can get a bit more headphone like, less tactile and punchy and lively. So further back, drums, guitars, sax whatever have more live tonality and focus and punch, closer everything bigger, smoother, but a bit less "there." I've recently tried adding a curved diffusor which I place on top of the large home theater center channel which sits between and behind my two channel tower speakers. What this does is liven up and focus the sound which is really great for closer listening distances - for instance a drum kit snare and kick drum pops out of the mix with more texture and solidity and "thereness," as does every other element in a mix. Therefore, I can even move closer than 7 feet, get a really immersive sound, and one that is dominated by the acoustics of the recording and yet it's more like moving closer to live instruments rather than the sound becoming too soft and headphone-like. Overall this is the most amazing sound I've achieved in my system, I think.

Also, as I think I mentioned earlier, though the Right speaker ends up inches away from the end of the sofa, it does not perceptibly affect the sound - bass/mids/highs sound similar and even from both speakers.

I recently received my Joseph Audio Perspective speakers back from being upgraded to the new version, so they have replaced the Thiels shown in my previous pictures. Currently they are 7.8 feet apart and I sit around 7.2 feet away. Here they are:



PERSPECTIVE 2 FACING SOFA copy.jpg


This shot gives an idea of the distance from the projection screen area (again, my L/C/R home theater speakers are covered in black velvet, their stands as well, so they tend to disappear visually in to the screen 'stage' area):

PERSPECTIVES 2 W SCREEN copy.jpg


This is a shot of my AV racks in another room down the hall - both 2 channel and home theater sources/amplification contained here:

AV RACK QUARTER VIEW copy.jpg
 
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