Why you need a center channel and to buy your movies

[LightninBoy]

I sat down to watch a horror flick the other night in my HT room (just a 5.1 but a nice system build around Revel F208, C208 speakers). I use a Roku device which is less than 2 years old. I had company over, so I ended up sitting on the end of the couch directly in front of the right main. Usually, this is not a problem.

We decided to watch "Possessor" which is streaming on Hulu. It is a recent movie, though no longer a spotlight movie on Hulu.

I immediately noticed a problem. Almost all the dialog seemed to be coming out of the right main speaker, rather than coming from the screen. I walked up to double check, and yep, no sound was coming from the center channel. All indicators on the AVR indicated the Roku was feeding it surround sound, but there was only sound coming from the two main speakers. It was only stereo. I tried some other shows (that were being featured) and confirmed that their surround sound (and thus center channel) were working properly.

The conclusion I drew from this was the issue was the source - that, for this less popular title, Hulu was only providing a stereo audio feed wrapped in a surround format. I also suspect the audio was highly compressed because the quality was not as good as I usually get from stereo. I had no option but to watch the movie with its very distracting audio limitations.

Just a little anecdote to highlight that center channels and owning movies (versus streaming) has utility.

 

[Trell]

immediately noticed a problem. Almost all the dialog seemed to be coming out of the right main speaker, rather than coming from the screen. I walked up to double check, and yep, no sound was coming from the center channel. All indicators on the AVR indicated the Roku was feeding it surround sound, but there was only sound coming from the two main speakers. It was only stereo.

That is annoying as I can’t use an up mixer on the stereo sound.

This type of encoding is quite common on Netflix, say, Korean shows or anime.

 

[LightninBoy]

That is annoying as I can’t use an up mixer on the stereo sound.

Exactly. I dug into the Roku audio settings and there are some options to play with that might allow one to use the AVR's up mixing features. But jeez, I just want to sit down and watch a movie.

 

[Bren Derlin]

You're using crappy audio mixing to make a definitive announcement that Center Channel Speakers Are Required?

I have a center channel speaker in our 5.1 living room rig (M16 + C205 + Polk in-wall surrounds), and a phantom center set up in our 4.1 HT room rig (M106 + M8 surrounds). ...Phantom center for the win in every way every time. Regardless if it's movies, streaming tv shows, Youtube, or sports.

 

[dougi]

I've had the same problem with our Foxtel pay platform here too. Audio sometimes coded as 2.0 Dolby with a flag set or something so you can't upmix. This was via a set-top-box, so I could at least set it's audio to PCM temporaily to get around it. I imagine you can do the same with the Roku, as you suggest, but yes it is very annoying when it happens!

 

[Trell]

You're using crappy audio mixing to make a definitive announcement that Center Channel Speakers Are Required?

I have a center channel speaker in our 5.1 living room rig (M16 + C205 + Polk in-wall surrounds), and a phantom center set up in our 4.1 HT room rig (M106 + M8 surrounds). ...Phantom center for the win in every way every time. Regardless if it's movies, streaming tv shows, Youtube, or sports.

So you have a bad center speaker and/or bad setup?

 

[Duke]

I have a center channel speaker in our 5.1 living room rig (M16 + C205 + Polk in-wall surrounds), and a phantom center set up in our 4.1 HT room rig (M106 + M8 surrounds). ...Phantom center for the win in every way every time. Regardless if it's movies, streaming tv shows, Youtube, or sports.

My observation has been that music videos can have enjoyable soundstage depth in phantom center mode, but with the center channel engaged the depth seems to be constrained, and little if any deeper than the center channel speaker's location.

There are other factors which may tip preference in a given situation one way or the other, but once I noticed the difference in soundstage depth on music videos I couldn't "unhear" it.

 

[DVDdoug]

A proper stereo downmix will mix the center into the left & right, and also the rear channels (at reduced level) into the left & right. So you shouldn't loose the dialog. (The "point one" LFE is not included in the downmix but you still get the regular bass.)

However the automatic downmix isn't ProLogic encoded and "upmixing" with ProLogic decoding could give weird results. (The separate stereo track on a DVD or Blu-Ray probably is ProLogic encoded.)

 

[tvih]

So you have a bad center speaker and/or bad setup?

You have a bad setup if you (think you) need a center channel

 

[Trell]

You have a bad setup if you (think you) need a center channel

I need a center speaker (it’s a 2-way standmount) as I often watch TV while slouching in the sofa and my head is then aligned with the right front speaker. Obviously not using a center is then not optimal.

A couple of years ago I switched out my horizontal 2.5-way center speaker with a standmount and the dialog intelligibility increased markedly when slouching.

 

[tvih]

I need a center speaker (it’s a 2-way standmount) as I often watch TV while slouching in the sofa and my head is then aligned with the right front speaker. Obviously not using a center is then not optimal.

A couple of years ago I switched out my horizontal 2.5-way center speaker with a standmount and the dialog intelligibility increased markedly when slouching.

I generally watch from the sweet spot only, but even when I don't, I'm not really bothered by slightly off-center audio. Heck, even in the sweet spot the voices aren't precisely matched to the speaker's location on screen after all, and to me the picture being "skewed" from being off-center is a bigger "problem" than the audio. Also I find that the off-center audio usually matches the off-center picture quite well anyway directionality-wise.

That's not to say I think no one should ever use center speakers by any means, as setups, environments and use-cases vary as your example demonstrates. But for me they're unnecessary cost and hassle to set up/integrate. Many people just buy them without actually trying out for themselves if they really need 'em or not simply because they were told to do so, and being tricky to place/integrate optimally (especially for "casual" setups where it's aesthetics over utility) may even make the sound actually worse. Which is why I usually bring up the counter-point in discussions such as this - and in this case the OP doesn't even really make a very good point, as it's using a single movie in a single streaming service as the basis. Never ran into the same issue myself, though I do find even actual surround soundtracks often woefully lacking in actual surround sound. Also I'm not even sure how the center channel was even relevant to the experience in this case.

But I ramble! Off to (re)watch some Fringe.

 

[GabrielPhoto]

You're using crappy audio mixing to make a definitive announcement that Center Channel Speakers Are Required?

I have a center channel speaker in our 5.1 living room rig (M16 + C205 + Polk in-wall surrounds), and a phantom center set up in our 4.1 HT room rig (M106 + M8 surrounds). ...Phantom center for the win in every way every time. Regardless if it's movies, streaming tv shows, Youtube, or sports.

And you are using a crappy MTM design center...the dumbest idea for a horizontal speaker, to claim phantom is better. Just as bad as what you are criticizing

 

[LightninBoy]

My observation has been that music videos can have enjoyable soundstage depth in phantom center mode, but with the center channel engaged the depth seems to be constrained, and little if any deeper than the center channel speaker's location.

There are other factors which may tip preference in a given situation one way or the other, but once I noticed the difference in soundstage depth on music videos I couldn't "unhear" it.

I noticed the same with music. What can help mitigate this to a degree is to be really careful of center placement relative to the mains. All speakers should be equal distant from the listening position and thus form an arc. However, often times that is not practical given the room layout or other domestic considerations.

 

[Trell]

My observation has been that music videos can have enjoyable soundstage depth in phantom center mode, but with the center channel engaged the depth seems to be constrained, and little if any deeper than the center channel speaker's location.

There are other factors which may tip preference in a given situation one way or the other, but once I noticed the difference in soundstage depth on music videos I couldn't "unhear" it.

I don’t upmix stereo content unless I watch TV, but I’ve many multichannel SACD, though, where the center speaker is used to a varying degree.

 

[LightninBoy]

You're using crappy audio mixing to make a definitive announcement that Center Channel Speakers Are Required?

I have a center channel speaker in our 5.1 living room rig (M16 + C205 + Polk in-wall surrounds), and a phantom center set up in our 4.1 HT room rig (M106 + M8 surrounds). ...Phantom center for the win in every way every time. Regardless if it's movies, streaming tv shows, Youtube, or sports.

FTR, my closing statement is that center channels have utility based on my experience missing it when the audio mix was crappy and the center channel not present. That said, my title, which you rightly called out, was hyperbolic and click baity. I meant it to be a bit tongue in cheek.

 

[Bren Derlin]

And you are using a crappy MTM design center...the dumbest idea for a horizontal speaker, to claim phantom is better. Just as bad as what you are criticizing

Even if I was using a third M106, it would still apply. 80-90% of the front audio is coming out of one little speaker in the middle, rather than a large stereophonic field from two speakers separated by 8+ ft. That's the HUGE difference. And it doesn't go unnoticed...

 

[GabrielPhoto]

Even if I was using a third M106, it would still apply. 80-90% of the front audio is coming out of one little speaker in the middle, rather than a large stereophonic field from two speakers separated by 8+ ft. That's the HUGE difference. And it doesn't go unnoticed...

Exactly one little puny speaker..there is your issue
Enjoy...

 

[Alexium]

My observation has been that music videos can have enjoyable soundstage depth in phantom center mode, but with the center channel engaged the depth seems to be constrained, and little if any deeper than the center channel speaker's location.

Exactly my experience as well.
There is a "center spread" feature in the Dolby upmixer (should be in the settings of every Dolby-licensed AVR), it absolutely must be ON. But it doesn't cure the problem, only lessens it. The soundstage of upmixed music is still constricted by the center channel.

My center speaker (retired now) is a coaxial two-way. No crappy MTMs here.

 

[Bren Derlin]

Exactly one little puny speaker..there is your issue
Enjoy...

 

[Tim Link]

If the left and right speakers are close to a side wall they are in a very different acoustic situation than the center channel. I've found I like 3 channel up-mixes quite a bit on smaller speaker arrangements, where the speakers aren't spread too far apart and they are all far away from the side walls, like in a room played sideways. This surprised me because one of the common reasons given for using a center channel is to fill the hole in the middle effect that can result from speakers spread too far apart.