Why would/should I pay more?

[TSX]

Hi everyone

This is my first post here.

I’ve been looking around for quite some time now, and read a lot of interesting threads. Very informative so far.

Anyway. I’m in search of a DAC. My needs are rather simple. I have a Roon endpoint streamer (Argon Audio Solo), which has coaxial out (+ toslink and RCA out). My preamplifier has analog inputs (RCA). I only need the digital signal converted to analog. A display showing sample rate would be nice. Don’t need volume control, filters, BT or any other fancy features. Just pure DAC. If I purchase any of the “blue” DACS, should I just buy whatever I like (has the features I need), and call it a day? If the D10S had coaxial inputs, it would be perfect for me I suppose.

My last hifi system I had for almost 20 years, and after I purchased it, I didn’t look at hifi again until recently. I just like to listen to music, and don’t follow trends or changes peripherals every other week.

It seems a bit counterintuitive to have a, to me at least, expensive system (6K $ speakers, 4.5K $ power amp and 3K $ preamp), and buying 200$ DAC

Thanks

 

[Berwhale]

Welcome to ASR! The Argon Audio Solo already includes a DAC that is based on the ESS Sabre ES9018 chip. Whilst there are many better measuring DACs out there, it's questionable if there would be any audible difference from what you have already (In a domestic environment and assuming that the ESS chip has been implemented reasonably well in the Solo).

This thread is worth a read... https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-thresholds-of-amp-and-dac-measurements.5734/

 

[JeremyFife]

Welcome

You'll hear this a lot here ... DAC is a solved problem and there is no correlation between price and performance.
Be honest about the features you want, have a look at the recommended DACs here and just relax and enjoy.
You can spend more if you like (RME) but you don't have to in order to get state of the art (SOTA) performance. That's up to you

 

[Wicky]

Topping, SMSL, & Sabaj are inexpensive Chinese based products which should serve your needs well.

 

[caught gesture]

It might seem counterintuitive, but you are buying a DAC at a time when you have access to an impartial review site that provides measurements as well as a time when there seems to be a race by Chinese producers to get the best measurements at the lowest price. Whether any of this is a positive thing for the longevity of the units involved, only time will tell. There has never been a better time to get a low priced DAC.

 

[Berwhale]

It might seem counterintuitive, but you are buying a DAC at a time when you have access to an impartial review site that provides measurements as well as a time when there seems to be a race by Chinese producers to get the best measurements at the lowest price. Whether any of this is a positive thing for the longevity of the units involved, only time will tell. There has never been a better time to get a low priced DAC.

And there's JDS Labs, Schiit Audio and Geshelli Labs if someone is inclined to want a product from the US.

Otherwise, the Topping D10s is probably the go to, audibly transparent, it just works device...

Topping D10s USB DAC and Bridge Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Topping D10s USB DAC and S/PDIF plus Toslink bridge. It was kindly sent to me by the company for testing. The D10s has a retail cost of US $99. Let me start by confessing that the original D10 was one of my favorites with its cute orange...

www.audiosciencereview.com

The Topping is $100, for comparison, the Toppings measured sum of distortion and noise is the same as a 2 years older $2,000 Benchmark DAC... https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...view-and-measurements-of-benchmark-dac3.3545/

 

[mhardy6647]

For some of us there might be value in paying a little more for a product purchased from an in-country dealer with a good reputation. In other words, there may be value in terms of after-the-sale support of various kinds that is worth paying incrementally more for.
I cannot, for ethical, economic, and environmental reasons, cotton to the notion of any product that costs a few hundred dollars as being disposable.
Others, I know, feel otherwise.

I also don't think one can fault anyone who wants a nice aesthetic package, and doesn't mind spending more money to get it.

 

[Angsty]

It might seem counterintuitive, but you are buying a DAC at a time when you have access to an impartial review site that provides measurements as well as a time when there seems to be a race by Chinese producers to get the best measurements at the lowest price. Whether any of this is a positive thing for the longevity of the units involved, only time will tell. There has never been a better time to get a low priced DAC.

Amir has demonstrated that a sub-$1000 Chinese-made DAC (D70s) can exceed the performance of a US $14,000 UK-made DAC (Chord DAVE). I cannot audibly distinguish my US $650 Topping D70s from my US $100 Schiit Modi 3. Feel comfortable that you can get at or near SOTA performance from low-cost, well-made DACs.

 

[Zenek73]

Review and Measurements of Musical Fidelity V90 DAC

This is a review and detailed measurements and comparison of Musical Fidelity V90-DAC against Topping D50. The unit is on kind loan from a member who has been patiently waiting for its review. :) The V90-DAC retails for $300 from what I can tell (it is sold through a dealer channel) so a bit...

www.audiosciencereview.com

But no balanced output. For me it's OK. Very solid device Not made in china if it's important for You

 

[MCH]

Well, for no volume control, no remote, no screen, and unbalanced, a dongle dac could be worth considering. Maybe others can advice which would fit best your system.
Edit: Ah o see the usb in your streamer is for power? Then no

 

[voodooless]

Welcome to ASR! The Argon Audio Solo already includes a DAC that is based on the ESS Sabre ES9018 chip. Whilst there are many better measuring DACs out there, it's questionable if there would be any audible difference from what you have already (In a domestic environment and assuming that the ESS chip has been implemented reasonably well in the Solo).

This thread is worth a read... https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-thresholds-of-amp-and-dac-measurements.5734/

It seems to have a 110 SINAD, so I’d say no need to spend any money. Just enjoy what you already have.

Argon Audio

Interesting products https://argonaudio.com/collections/amplifiers-streaming

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[gvl]

Unless I had other sources to switch in I’d just replace the preamp with the RME ADI-2 DAC or maybe a Benchmark DAC3, this should alleviate the (unfounded) concern about going cheap and have some control over matching DAC output level to amp input sensitivity.

 

[MRC01]

... I’m in search of a DAC. My needs are rather simple. I have a Roon endpoint streamer (Argon Audio Solo), which has coaxial out (+ toslink and RCA out). My preamplifier has analog inputs (RCA). I only need the digital signal converted to analog. A display showing sample rate would be nice. Don’t need volume control, filters, BT or any other fancy features. Just pure DAC. If I purchase any of the “blue” DACS, should I just buy whatever I like (has the features I need), and call it a day? If the D10S had coaxial inputs, it would be perfect for me I suppose.

My last hifi system I had for almost 20 years, and after I purchased it, I didn’t look at hifi again until recently. I just like to listen to music, and don’t follow trends or changes peripherals every other week.

It seems a bit counterintuitive to have a, to me at least, expensive system (6K $ speakers, 4.5K $ power amp and 3K $ preamp), and buying 200$ DAC ...

Amir has demonstrated that a sub-$1000 Chinese-made DAC (D70s) can exceed the performance of a US $14,000 UK-made DAC (Chord DAVE). I cannot audibly distinguish my US $650 Topping D70s from my US $100 Schiit Modi 3. Feel comfortable that you can get at or near SOTA performance from low-cost, well-made DACs.

Suppose you can get a DAC that meets your functional needs and has great measurements here at ASR, for $200. Why might you want to pay more?

• Build quality - cheap DACs can be flimsy
• Reliability (hardware or software) - it may have buggy software
• Support - it may have poor to virtually nonexistent support
• Longevity - related to the above

These are not theoretical concerns; I've seen cheap DACs with excellent performance fall short in one or more of the above areas. Items 2 and 3 are a knockout combination: if you have a buggy DAC, good support may fix it. If it's not buggy then you don't need support. But if it's buggy AND has poor support, you are dead in the water.

BTW, this doesn't mean go out and buy a kilobuck DAC. The detailed technical reviews and measurements that @amirm does are invaluable. These are just things that are hard to measure or assess in such a review.

 

[TSX]

Thank you all for taking your time to answer me.

I’ll start by using the DAC of my streamer. Also one less link in the chain I suppose.

Thanks

 

[TSX]

Unless I had other sources to switch in I’d just replace the preamp with the RME ADI-2 DAC or maybe a Benchmark DAC3, this should alleviate the (unfounded) concern about going cheap and have some control over matching DAC output level to amp input sensitivity.

I do. CD and turntable. Also I don’t like the looks of “half sized” hifi. My preamp has an amazing phono preamp.

 

[Angsty]

Suppose you can get a DAC that meets your functional needs and has great measurements here at ASR, for $200. Why might you want to pay more?

• Build quality - cheap DACs can be flimsy
• Reliability (hardware or software) - it may have buggy software
• Support - it may have poor to virtually nonexistent support
• Longevity - related to the above

These are not theoretical concerns; I've seen cheap DACs with excellent performance fall short in one or more of the above areas. Items 2 and 3 are a knockout combination: if you have a buggy DAC, good support may fix it. If it's not buggy then you don't need support. But if it's buggy AND has poor support, you are dead in the water.

BTW, this doesn't mean go out and buy a kilobuck DAC. The detailed technical reviews and measurements that @amirm does are invaluable. These are just things that are hard to measure or assess in such a review.

Really, a sub-$200 DAC is a very simple system. There really is not much to go wrong. Here is the board of the Modi 3E:

I have no doubt that my Schiit Modi 3 will outlast several external power supplies; it will last at least 10 years, probably more. That may be a consideration in itself for a sub $200 DAC; does it have an external or internal power supply. For longevity, an internal power supply is preferable. The Topping D30Pro can get you there for US $400; there may be less expensive options.

If you want bomb-proof build quality, reliability, warranty and support, there is always Bryston. The Bryston BDA-3 goes for a pricey US $3000, but does not sound better than a Topping. However, my 20-year old Bryston DAC is still kicking without a glitch and is still serviceable by the factory. $3000 is a huge premium over $200 for that type of support and build quality, though.

Software support for various USB implementations might be an issue, but USB is typically backward compatible.

 

[Angsty]

Thank you all for taking your time to answer me.

I’ll start by using the DAC of my streamer. Also one less link in the chain I suppose.

Thanks

Good call.

 

[Mart68]

Remember when a DAC was just thing inside a CD player and no-one stressed about it or even thought about it?

Making the DAC into an object of fetishism might be hi-fi marketing's finest hour.

 

[Zenek73]

Really, a sub-$200 DAC is a very simple system. There really is not much to go wrong. Here is the board of the Modi 3E:

I have no doubt that my Schiit Modi 3 will outlast several external power supplies; it will last at least 10 years, probably more. That may be a consideration in itself for a sub $200 DAC; does it have an external or internal power supply. For longevity, an internal power supply is preferable. The Topping D30Pro can get you there for US $400; there may be less expensive options.

If you want bomb-proof build quality, reliability, warranty and support, there is always Bryston. The Bryston BDA-3 goes for a pricey US $3000, but does not sound better than a Topping. However, my 20-year old Bryston DAC is still kicking without a glitch and is still serviceable by the factory. $3000 is a huge premium over $200 for that type of support and build quality, though.

Software support for various USB implementations might be an issue, but USB is typically backward compatible.

Shiit - Made in USA

 

[TSX]

Shiit - Made in USA

Yes. And only available in the USA (more or less). Almost impossible to buy in Europe, unfortunately.