Why would anyone pay $9k for a sub? Honestly…

[Paul7777x]

Considering Peter Lyngdorff has a hand in Purifi, Radiant, Dali, etc, figured it was only a matter of time before the Purifi drivers hit all of his endeavors.

So far as I can tell it is not a Purifi driver. Simply one of Dali’s own with a Purifi surround.

 

[Golfx]

Cheaper subs use cheaper parts. Which sound just fine, really, unless stressed by louder spl. However, at louder spl those cheaper parts start to show the limits of their manufacture.

 

[egellings]

Cheaper subs use cheaper parts. Which sound just fine, really, unless stressed by louder spl. However, at louder spl those cheaper parts start to show the limits of their manufacture.

Failure rate may be higher, too.

 

[3125b]

Cheaper subs use cheaper parts

This does too ...

 

[Oddball]

The GSG are too big and heavy to drag outside but I have nearfield and in room measurements at LP which I think is OK because the FR of the room dominates at LF anyway. I have also measured the SB 3000's the same way and the nearfield correlates well with published CEA-2010 results. GSG does have recommended drivers for their various enclosures but don't have published measurements for each combination. I do use a high shelf filter to flatten the response but even with shaving off 14 dB they still have a lot of SPL headroom. I also use a low pass protection filter which I don't like because of group delay but with a 17 Hz port tuning there is still less than ~10 ms group delay at 20 Hz (It increases below 20 Hz but I don't worry about that). Compared to the "small sealed subs" like the SVS, distortion is very low which is where I think most of the audible difference comes from. SVS SB 3000 have 45% distortion at 95 dB @ 20 Hz vs ~2% at 95 dB @ 20 Hz for the GSG. I am not really sure how loud they can play as they start to scare me but I have seen 115 dB+ down to 20 Hz on a calibrated meter at the LP. Of course our hearing is not very sensitive at LF so these comparisons look much worse than what you actually hear but the technology exists for low distortion, low group delay, and high SPL LF playback and it does not have to be expensive. The "cost", as Hoffman's Iron Law points out, is that large enclosures and large drivers are required. When you try to shrink things down costs go up rapidly and performance drops rapidly.

It is true that SVS mid-range subs throw a lot of distortion at around 20hz. Then I guess the idea is that this distortion is not really audible as at that point we start to feel rather than hear the bass. At least that is what SVS probably thinks. Going infrasonic is probably best catered by much larger drivers than 18".

Having multiple subs will provide in general a better response and lower distortion up to the point where they do go off the charts. I do find my 4 subs quite capable in above 20hz range, and performing with low distortion which I might or might not be able to ascertain, but at least don't have to keep trying. SVS PB 4000 puts out a pretty convincing game up to 110dB at 20hz. Might need couple of them if larger room, but still a fair game.

If wanted a really reference level subs, would go Perlisten any day of the week. But I guess, they are too expensive for my taste .

 

[levimax]

It is true that SVS mid-range subs throw a lot of distortion at around 20hz. Then I guess the idea is that this distortion is not really audible as at that point we start to feel rather than hear the bass.

The problem is due to Fletcher-Munson the 40 Hz distortion tones are ~15 dB more audible than the 20 Hz fundamental and the 60 Hz distortion tones are ~30 dB more audible than the fundamental. This means that when these small subs try to play 20 Hz they end up playing 40 Hz and 60 Hz at a perceived louder level than the 20 Hz fundamental instead. This is so far from Hi-Fi I am surprised it doesn't get more mention from the 100dB+ SINAD crowd. I think the reason is that people like bass better than no bass even if it is distorted and 20 Hz is very rare in most recorded music. While not quite as extreme as 20 Hz the same scenario is in place at 30 Hz and there is lot more of that on recorded music.

Having multiple subs will provide in general a better response and lower distortion up to the point where they do go off the charts.

Since I don't have double blind listening test to prove it this is just my subjective observation (I do have 6 subs to play with and have tried many different combinations). I prefer 1 high performance sub to multiple less capable subs. The inevitable dips in the FR for the single sub is not as noticeable to me as the distortion and compressed SPL and I believe time domain issues with multiple less capable subs. My most preferred is 2 high performance subs tightly co-located (1/4 wave length or less), in stereo mode with linear phase crossovers. These can be crossed high enough to DSP away most room issues (even dips at least at the LP) and preserve stereo sub information and cancel pre-ringing and reduce group delay and have low distortion and high SPL. The only problem I see is it doesn't work with MC systems. YMMV

 

[Oddball]

The problem is due to Fletcher-Munson the 40 Hz distortion tones are ~15 dB more audible than the 20 Hz fundamental and the 60 Hz distortion tones are ~30 dB more audible than the fundamental. This means that when these small subs try to play 20 Hz they end up playing 40 Hz and 60 Hz at a perceived louder level than the 20 Hz fundamental instead. This is so far from Hi-Fi I am surprised it doesn't get more mention from the 100dB+ SINAD crowd. I think the reason is that people like bass better than no bass even if it is distorted and 20 Hz is very rare in most recorded music. While not quite as extreme as 20 Hz the same scenario is in place at 30 Hz and there is lot more of that on recorded music.

Since I don't have double blind listening test to prove it this is just my subjective observation (I do have 6 subs to play with and have tried many different combinations). I prefer 1 high performance sub to multiple less capable subs. The inevitable dips in the FR for the single sub is not as noticeable to me as the distortion and compressed SPL and I believe time domain issues with multiple less capable subs. My most preferred is 2 high performance subs tightly co-located (1/4 wave length or less), in stereo mode with linear phase crossovers. These can be crossed high enough to DSP away most room issues (even dips at least at the LP) and preserve stereo sub information and cancel pre-ringing and reduce group delay and have low distortion and high SPL. The only problem I see is it doesn't work with MC systems. YMMV

Quite a different experience than mine. But that's good. There should be different perspectives. My ART system works great and 4 subs that are roughly along the lines of what I posted are doing well. But appreciate that your subs might be better or work better for you.

Won't comment on linear phase, stereo subs, pre-ringing and group delay. Glad you have all that tuned in. Low distortion and high SPL can come from multiple subs, with the benefits of improved FQ response and reduced decay.

 

[levimax]

Quite a different experience than mine. But that's good. There should be different perspectives. My ART system works great and 4 subs that are roughly along the lines of what I posted are doing well. But appreciate that your subs might be better or work better for you.

Won't comment on linear phase, stereo subs, pre-ringing and group delay. Glad you have all that tuned in. Low distortion and high SPL can come from multiple subs, with the benefits of improved FQ response and reduced decay.

I am going to try ART as soon as it comes out for PC, I already have DLBC. Then I can find out about what the reduced decay sounds like which I am very curious about. Problem is since I have some subs I am not using I wanted to add a couple of them back in so I have 4. If you have 2 pairs of very different subs does ART work with that? DLBC could not figure it out.

 

[Milt]

Only if I spent $5k on the sub cable

 

[levimax]

I don't think the sub linked by the OP is worth 9 K but this one may be https://www.powersoundaudio.com/collections/subwoofers/products/tv126

 

[Chrispy]

If I assemble a subwoofer from a "flat pack" does that qualify as DIY?

More than simply buying an assembled one? True diy needs you to make your own driver?

 

[levimax]

More than simply buying an assembled one? True diy needs you to make your own driver?

Don't forget about almost cutting off a finger with a table saw.

 

[Chrispy]

Don't forget about almost cutting off a finger with a table saw.

I worry more about kick back

 

[Oddball]

I am going to try ART as soon as it comes out for PC, I already have DLBC. Then I can find out about what the reduced decay sounds like which I am very curious about. Problem is since I have some subs I am not using I wanted to add a couple of them back in so I have 4. If you have 2 pairs of very different subs does ART work with that? DLBC could not figure it out.

The rumor is that ART is coming to PC this year, so hopefully true. That would be a big new market for Dirac, so makes sense on all ends.

ART support works on basis of grouping speakers and then cross-supporting groups. With 2 pairs of different subs that would mean defining 2 groups of subs and independent parameters for support. For example bigger subs could be 20-150hz support and smaller 30-150hz and intensity of support could be larger for bigger subs and lower for smaller ones. ART does not support correction below 20hz, but if 20hz is lowest range of support, then one can check "infrasonic" option that will pass through sub 20hz signal but without EQ. Dirac will try to follow the curve/shelf used for ART range but this could cause some dips or peaks in transition or for some rooms might actually work perfectly.

 

[Chr1]

Any ideas when, and guesstimates as to the possible price for the PC ART licence?

 

[Oddball]

Any ideas when, and guesstimates as to the possible price for the PC ART licence?

I have not heard anything except 2026. It has been in beta testing for a while though so hopefully release is coming soon. Would be surprised if pricing would be different than for the current supported AVRs/AVPs. It's not cheap for sure, but on balance IMO probably still the best upgrade value for the $$$.

The big advantage is that PC version runs on the hardware you own.

 

[Chr1]

Thanks. Hoping that there might be a free trial version available. I am currently using MathAudio RoomEQ which is free for use with a PC, so I'd really like to be able to compare the two before buying if possible.

 

[levimax]

Thanks. Hoping that there might be a free trial version available. I am currently using MathAudio RoomEQ which is free for use with a PC, so I'd really like to be able to compare the two before buying if possible.

In the past DIRAC has had a trial period.

 

[Mike_Trueman]

I do not get this forum post. You can always buy 2 DALI V-16 F subwoofers.

 

[Chr1]

Sounds good. I am assuming the license is for one PC only. As I use several PCs for playback, I guess, if I like it, I could opt for Dirac on the main system and MathAudio on the other. Thanks.