Why would anyone pay $9k for a sub? Honestly…

[Barrelhouse Solly]

…with everything we know about the superiority of using multiple subwoofers in a room, why would you spend that kind of money on a single sub?

Case in point: the DALI V-16 F Subwoofer

DALI V-16 F Subwoofer Review - HomeTheaterHifi.com

DALI (Danish Audio Loudspeaker Industries) was founded in 1983 with the stated goal of providing outstanding performance...

hometheaterhifi.com

There are a couple of bones to pick about this review:
• It lists the price as both $6k and $9k. Since a search pulls up both prices right now, I can’t really fault the reviewer too much for that.

• Other than a single frequency response sweep, no measurements were done so it’s basically a subjective, sounds-good-to-me review. For a subwoofer, that’s close to useless.

As to the sub itself, two things are apparent:
• This is a beast of a sub from every aspect and I have no doubt the Purifi-style surround reduces a great deal of distortion (read a white paper on it and it’s an ingenious design).

• Regardless of its performance, a mass of subs costing the same price will offer superior results for the same price. The is a total crap value proposition at $6k. At $9k, it’s lunacy.

You can get fantastic subs from Rythmik and SVS for $1,500. Four of them (for $6k) in each corner of the room will trounce this sub. If the price is actually $9k, six subs (LCR front and back) will eviscerate this single box.

With multiple subs also offering much higher headroom and much lower distortion, I don’t understand why this product and ones like it exist.

Even worse, it’s not like a pretty power amp or a reel to reel. The is no visual cool-factor going on here. It’s a plain black box. A beat-up old fridge with a ton of decorative magnets on it is much more interesting to look at.

It don’t get it.

For the same reason people pay a million dollars for a car or install a high end CNC machine tool setup in their basement. I can't afford stuff like that but apparently they can.

 

[Chrispy]

I agree mixing subs can be a nightmare in most cases but even 4 identical subs are not a guarantee of success.

High performance subs are GSG DIY assembled subs with 18" Lavoce drivers and a Crown XLC 21300 (1,300 WPC @ 4 ohms). https://shop.gsgad.com/collections/...ies/products/roundover-full-marty-single-unit

Cost ~$2,000 for a pair including amp from ebay. Compared to the SVS SB 3000 there is ~20-30 dB less distortion and ~20-30 dB higher SPL and ~90 ms less group delay @ 20 Hz.

I originally bought several SI 18" HT drivers to build the original MartyBox (from designs on avsforum where that all started). As a beginning woodworker I chickened out somewhat and went with sealed boxes instead first, intending to later build the ported boxes but never really found the need. I don't find GSG provides a lot of information on using a variety of drivers in their boxes, tho. You have measurements of your subs?

 

[Everett T]

I originally bought several SI 18" HT drivers to build the original MartyBox (from designs on avsforum where that all started). As a beginning woodworker I chickened out somewhat and went with sealed boxes instead first, intending to later build the ported boxes but never really found the need. I don't find GSG provides a lot of information on using a variety of drivers in their boxes, tho. You have measurements of your subs?

20-30db more SPL output seems awful high, especially at long term output. I'd be curious to see the measurements as well.

 

[levimax]

I originally bought several SI 18" HT drivers to build the original MartyBox (from designs on avsforum where that all started). As a beginning woodworker I chickened out somewhat and went with sealed boxes instead first, intending to later build the ported boxes but never really found the need. I don't find GSG provides a lot of information on using a variety of drivers in their boxes, tho. You have measurements of your subs?

The GSG are too big and heavy to drag outside but I have nearfield and in room measurements at LP which I think is OK because the FR of the room dominates at LF anyway. I have also measured the SB 3000's the same way and the nearfield correlates well with published CEA-2010 results. GSG does have recommended drivers for their various enclosures but don't have published measurements for each combination. I do use a high shelf filter to flatten the response but even with shaving off 14 dB they still have a lot of SPL headroom. I also use a low pass protection filter which I don't like because of group delay but with a 17 Hz port tuning there is still less than ~10 ms group delay at 20 Hz (It increases below 20 Hz but I don't worry about that). Compared to the "small sealed subs" like the SVS, distortion is very low which is where I think most of the audible difference comes from. SVS SB 3000 have 45% distortion at 95 dB @ 20 Hz vs ~2% at 95 dB @ 20 Hz for the GSG. I am not really sure how loud they can play as they start to scare me but I have seen 115 dB+ down to 20 Hz on a calibrated meter at the LP. Of course our hearing is not very sensitive at LF so these comparisons look much worse than what you actually hear but the technology exists for low distortion, low group delay, and high SPL LF playback and it does not have to be expensive. The "cost", as Hoffman's Iron Law points out, is that large enclosures and large drivers are required. When you try to shrink things down costs go up rapidly and performance drops rapidly.

 

[levimax]

20-30db more SPL output seems awful high, especially at long term output. I'd be curious to see the measurements as well.

At what distortion level and frequency? The small SVS subs barely get above the threshold of hearing of 78 dB at 20 Hz without a lot of distortion (~13% or -18 db @ 85 dB). Attached is a NF distortion measurement of the GSG sub at ~ 85 dB (scale is not calibrated and does not include high shelf filter) which is ~0.5% distortion or -45 dB. If I pushed them to 13% distortion they would be way over 110 dB.

 

[Everett T]

At what distortion level and frequency? The small SVS subs barely get above the threshold of hearing of 78 dB at 20 Hz without a lot of distortion (~13% or -18 db @ 85 dB). Attached is a NF distortion measurement of the GSG sub at ~ 85 dB (scale is not calibrated and does not include high shelf filter) which is ~0.5% distortion or -45 dB. If I pushed them to 13% distortion they would be way over 110 dB.

View attachment 515740

You're not comparing apples to apples FWIW. Using max burst test (from the available cea-2010) for the sb3000 and your measurements for the GSG isn't gonna tell you much. I appreciate you posting your findings on the GSG and while I never thought the SVS would out perform an 18" driver, I still have serious doubts about the output difference, especially in the mid bass. When making comparisons it's best to use voltage as the input. Enjoy your subs!

 

[steve59]

Is amazing how far money can go once the kids are out of your pocket and the house is paid off. Coarse how long money lasts still depends on smart spending and beauty is still in the eye of the beholder. Music is art and if a specific tool brings someone closer to their music {as most of us agree perception is at least as important as science, at least regarding art}, it's the DALI reps job to show this sub in a convincing light.

 

[levimax]

You're not comparing apples to apples FWIW. Using max burst test (from the available cea-2010) for the sb3000 and your measurements for the GSG isn't gonna tell you much.

I am curious as to why not? When I measure my SVS subs with a NF sweep in REW I get results that are very similar to the CEA-2010 measurements shown in the 10 subwoofer test. I know the methods are different but shouldn't the THD be the same or very close?

I still have serious doubts about the output difference, especially in the mid bass.

In the DIY big sub world there is a lot of discussion about the pro's and con's of using dedicated low efficiency subwoofer drivers vs high efficiency Pro PA drivers. The sub drivers are optimised for LF extension where as the PA drivers are optimised for high efficiency and power handling at somewhat higher frequencies. It turns out if you are willing to go large enough on the enclosure you can get the LF extension equal to or greater than a dedicated sub driver with significantly higher output / higher efficiency in the mid bass. The bottom line is the "big enclosure Pro Driver Subs" excel at mid-bass output. See chart below from GSG FAQ https://shop.gsgad.com/pages/frequently-asked-questions

 

[Paul7777x]

…with everything we know about the superiority of using multiple subwoofers in a room, why would you spend that kind of money on a single sub?

Case in point: the DALI V-16 F Subwoofer

DALI V-16 F Subwoofer Review - HomeTheaterHifi.com

DALI (Danish Audio Loudspeaker Industries) was founded in 1983 with the stated goal of providing outstanding performance...

hometheaterhifi.com

There are a couple of bones to pick about this review:
• It lists the price as both $6k and $9k. Since a search pulls up both prices right now, I can’t really fault the reviewer too much for that.

• Other than a single frequency response sweep, no measurements were done so it’s basically a subjective, sounds-good-to-me review. For a subwoofer, that’s close to useless.

As to the sub itself, two things are apparent:
• This is a beast of a sub from every aspect and I have no doubt the Purifi-style surround reduces a great deal of distortion (read a white paper on it and it’s an ingenious design).

• Regardless of its performance, a mass of subs costing the same price will offer superior results for the same price. The is a total crap value proposition at $6k. At $9k, it’s lunacy.

You can get fantastic subs from Rythmik and SVS for $1,500. Four of them (for $6k) in each corner of the room will trounce this sub. If the price is actually $9k, six subs (LCR front and back) will eviscerate this single box.

With multiple subs also offering much higher headroom and much lower distortion, I don’t understand why this product and ones like it exist.

Even worse, it’s not like a pretty power amp or a reel to reel. The is no visual cool-factor going on here. It’s a plain black box. A beat-up old fridge with a ton of decorative magnets on it is much more interesting to look at.

It don’t get it.

The sub is £4500 in the UK and €5000 Euros across the continent.

I assume your $9k price tag includes the Satsuma in chief’s stealing from his subjects.

Or ‘tariffs’ as he calls it.

 

[Chrispy]

The sub is £4500 in the UK and €5000 Euros across the continent.

I assume your $9k price tag includes the Satsuma in chief’s stealing from his subjects.

Or ‘tariffs’ as he calls it.

Even with the silly tariffs that's perhaps just wrong in the article, which just quotes a manufacturer's suggested retail price....but Audioholics' article on the release cites USD 5050.....

 

[dtaylo1066]

9K sub. F' that. The only component I would ever considering paying 9K for, and if I won the lottery (I did not last night), would be speakers. Other than my wife throwing me out of the house after stabbing me, yes, I could afford 9K speakers. But why? You can get a splendid all in one system with KEF LS 60, and if you have a good amp a pair of Buchardt, Revel or Ascilab, or quite a few other fine speakers for 1-4K, that is all you need. And if you are a bass nut, you can certainly get a fine sub for less than $1,500, arguably far less.

If the 9K sub came with a hot tub and bikini-clad beer servers I may reconsider.

 

[Flaesh]

With multiple subs also offering much higher headroom and much lower distortion, I don’t understand why this product and ones like it exist.

So that one can buy enough of these subwoofers for multi-sub or bass arrays !

 

[dtaylo1066]

Good marketing. I built a 12" sub years ago with a plate amp. Box was thick MDF and braced like mad. Covered with Maple veneer. That damn thing could shake the walls in my basement. My kid loved it and still sometimes uses it, though the speaker cone is foam and has cracked. Some are bass addicts. Let's face it, if you have speakers that get down to 40 hz or below, most people are good. A good 6.5 inch mid-woofer can go pretty low, and an 8" driver can go pretty deep in a well designed speaker.

 

[Chrispy]

Good marketing. I built a 12" sub years ago with a plate amp. Box was thick MDF and braced like mad. Covered with Maple veneer. That damn thing could shake the walls in my basement. My kid loved it and still sometimes uses it, though the speaker cone is foam and has cracked. Some are bass addicts. Let's face it, if you have speakers that get down to 40 hz or below, most people are good. A good 6.5 inch mid-woofer can go pretty low, and an 8" driver can go pretty deep in a well designed speaker.

LOL but where's the fun in being limited? I definitely want performance to at least 20hz, preferably better.

 

[dtaylo1066]

LOL but where's the fun in being limited? I definitely want performance to at least 20hz, preferably better.

Yes, but you also paid $26,000 for that orgasmatron, didn't you?

 

[Chrispy]

Yes, but you also paid $26,000 for that orgasmatron, didn't you?

LOl, can get that for far less. Pay more for the proper room/installation of the Eminent sub, tho

 

[LesterHiggins]

Because they're too impatient to find it on eBay open box for eight thousand dollars, duh. Or they're rich, selfish, have a fragile ego, and equate their self worth with their wealth and possessions. Also they don't care if poor people live or die. Pretty much sums it up.

 

[LesterHiggins]

LOL, I get an error when replying directly, probably for the best, I don't want to get into arguments with strangers today, but if you're outsourcing your designs to furniture makers, you can't call your subwoofer "DIY." You imagined it yourself, funded it yourself, coordinated it yourself, but you didn't do it yourself.

 

[levimax]

LOL, I get an error when replying directly, probably for the best, I don't want to get into arguments with strangers today, but if you're outsourcing your designs to furniture makers, you can't call your subwoofer "DIY." You imagined it yourself, funded it yourself, coordinated it yourself, but you didn't do it yourself.

If I assemble a subwoofer from a "flat pack" does that qualify as DIY?

 

[LesterHiggins]

The funny thing is that my father is somewhat wealthy and views subwoofers as trashy and unbecoming. I don't know if it's an extension I have running, or if I've been given a timeout here, but when I hit 'reply' I get an error that says 'response is not json.' If you did some soldering of electrical components and some finishing to the cabinet of your flat pack subwoofer, sanding, staining, veneer or stain/seal, then I think sure, you can claim DIY. Otherwise it's kind of just a glorified Lego set. Not that there's anything wrong with that!