Why would anyone pay $9k for a sub? Honestly…

[SHB]

…with everything we know about the superiority of using multiple subwoofers in a room, why would you spend that kind of money on a single sub?

Case in point: the DALI V-16 F Subwoofer

DALI V-16 F Subwoofer Review - HomeTheaterHifi.com

DALI (Danish Audio Loudspeaker Industries) was founded in 1983 with the stated goal of providing outstanding performance...

hometheaterhifi.com

There are a couple of bones to pick about this review:
• It lists the price as both $6k and $9k. Since a search pulls up both prices right now, I can’t really fault the reviewer too much for that.

• Other than a single frequency response sweep, no measurements were done so it’s basically a subjective, sounds-good-to-me review. For a subwoofer, that’s close to useless.

As to the sub itself, two things are apparent:
• This is a beast of a sub from every aspect and I have no doubt the Purifi-style surround reduces a great deal of distortion (read a white paper on it and it’s an ingenious design).

• Regardless of its performance, a mass of subs costing the same price will offer superior results for the same price. The is a total crap value proposition at $6k. At $9k, it’s lunacy.

You can get fantastic subs from Rythmik and SVS for $1,500. Four of them (for $6k) in each corner of the room will trounce this sub. If the price is actually $9k, six subs (LCR front and back) will eviscerate this single box.

With multiple subs also offering much higher headroom and much lower distortion, I don’t understand why this product and ones like it exist.

Even worse, it’s not like a pretty power amp or a reel to reel. The is no visual cool-factor going on here. It’s a plain black box. A beat-up old fridge with a ton of decorative magnets on it is much more interesting to look at.

It don’t get it.

 

[NTK]

Quoting Dr Toole ...

Yes, there is a substantial efficiency gain when using multiple subs. Many people end up with more sound power than they actually need. I'll take four modest subs over the single most grandiose sub any day. ...

 

[levimax]

I am sure they are paying a lot of money to Purfi to license the driver technology and it is a unique driver built in small quantities. It is also apparently made in Denmark. Certainly not worth the money for most people in most situations but "one on one" against other similar subs it will most likely hold its own and probably outperform most. Not for me though.

 

[Chrispy]

I was just looking at how much Perlisten subs cost. I couldn't justify them myself, I'm with Dr Toole too.

 

[kharan]

Quoting Dr Toole ...

What about four grandiose subs?

I guess there's a customer base that can afford that, and if you can afford the Epikore range from Dali you can afford half a dozen subs from them too.

 

[levimax]

Regarding multiple vs one good sub my experience is that the ASR dogma that multiple lower performing subs are better than one higher performance sub is not always true. I have 6 subs, 2 large very high performance subs, 2 SVS SB 3000 subs which I consider rather low performance (high distortion and high group delay) , and 2 DIY sealed subs which are also low performance but in a different way than the SVS subs (not a lot of LF SPL). I have tried them in many different configurations and I have found 2 co-located high performance subs crossed relatively high to be the best for my room. This is followed closely by one high performance sub located equal distance and close the mains and crossed at "normal 80 Hz".

Multiple (2 to 4) poor subs with high distortion and high group delay, while potentially having a smoother FR do not sound as good as even one high performance sub which is not really surprising as the combination of very high distortion and the Fletcher-Munson curve means that distortion products are playing louder than the fundamental under many scenarios. You can get a feel for how poor performing many subs are from this test on ASR https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/i-measured-10-subwoofers.49042/ . Another issues is that adding additional subs usually does not increase SPL as cancellation effects start to take over especially when adding a 3rd or 4th sub. Finally the integration of 2 to 4 subs, even with all the fancy MSO and "automatic" tools is not as straightforward are many are lead to believe because in room LF measurements are inherently difficult to take and difficult to interpret.

I find 2 high performance subs co-located and crossed high allows for satisfying bass with high SPL, low distortion, low extension, stereo bass, and if powerful enough can be used to smooth the FR just as well if not better (certainly easier) that trying to locate and integrate 4 low performance subs. It also eliminates any issues with being able to "locate" subs which in my experience is much easier, even down to 50 Hz or lower, than we are lead to believe. YMMV.

 

[JustJones]

The Dali is a bargain.

This ATC is only $17K , I guess it looks nicer.

ATC - C6 Sub

ATC - C6 Sub Description: Full “SL” spec 15˝/375mm bass driver. 450W Class G amplifier. Phase adjustment. Variable cut off frequency. Variable gain. Stereo inputs. 6 year warranty. Any veneer to order. Featured veneer:Yew. Specifications: Driver: LF 375mm Amplitude Linearity (±2dB): 30Hz-300Hz...

thesourceav.com

 

[Everett T]

Considering Peter Lyngdorff has a hand in Purifi, Radiant, Dali, etc, figured it was only a matter of time before the Purifi drivers hit all of his endeavors.

 

[Dialectic]

Even worse, it’s not like a pretty power amp or a reel to reel. The is no visual cool-factor going on here. It’s a plain black box. A beat-up old fridge with a ton of decorative magnets on it is much more interesting to look at.

It doesn't look any nicer than a cheap Hsu, Rythmik or SVS subwoofer. For $9K. Incredible....

 

[a4eaudio]

Why would someone pay $5,000 for speakers? Why would someone pay $2,000 for an amplifier? Why would someone pay $100,000 for a car? Why would someone pay $300 for a Le Creuset Dutch oven?
....
Same answer to why someone would pay $9,000 for a Dali subwoofer.

 

[staticV3]

My question is why would someone pay Dali at all, who've showcased their shoddy loudspeaker engineering a number of times on ASR, EAC etc.

Same story with Triangle, Mission, Q Acoustics, Monitor Audio ...

I can't wrap my head around what they have to offer besides word of mouth.

Dali especially seems to have no understanding of frequency response linearity, or the concept of controlled directivity.

 

[Keith_W]

Well let's look at the cost of a "high end" DIY subwoofer. I wanted my subwoofers to match my furniture so that it would blend into the listening room a bit better. This meant going down the "DIY" route. So I bought four Rythmik drivers, two plate amps, and copied the Rythmik reference design paying attention to maintaining the same Vas. I hired a speaker designer to check the design and make CAD drawings. The CAD drawings were sent to a CNC cutting service, then the panels were sent to a furniture maker. I supplied some wood samples and asked him to match the veneer. Then I took delivery of the empty subwoofer carcasses and installed the drivers. Total cost all up: AUD$10k (USD$7k) for two subwoofers, or USD$3.5k each.

If I had to add profit, business overheads, marketing, shipping, insurance, etc. it would easily triple the price. And if I had to buy CNC machines and hire workers it would cost even more. How SVS manages to sell a sub for $3k shipped to your door is a miracle to me and it makes me wonder what they have done to bring the price down so much. There is of course bulk discount when purchasing raw materials as well as the efficiencies of a production line, but that can not explain everything. Maybe they have less internal bracing than what I used, which will keep the material cost down and save weight and therefore shipping? After all, they are actual engineers and I am a weekend hack, so I take a somewhat Victorian approach to construction.

If you have a hard time understanding why things cost so much, try doing it yourself. You will very quickly understand.

 

[a4eaudio]

... Total cost all up: AUD$10k (USD$7k) for two subwoofers, or USD$3.5k each.

If you have a hard time understanding why things cost so much, try doing it yourself. You will very quickly understand.

Do you know how much they would have cost if it was 100% DIY, i.e., not paying someone for checking the design and CAD drawing, not paying for CNC work, and not paying for the cabinet veneering?

 

[Imakeller]

It would be outside of my budget, but I can certainly envision a subwoofer that’s worth $9k. However, four subs (including external amps) for $20k was in my budget though, and I’m very happy with them! Would I value the subwoofer referenced by the OP at $9k based on performance, components, and aesthetics? No. But if people want to buy them, it’s no problem for me … enjoy!

 

[Mr. Widget]

The Dali is a bargain.

This ATC is only $17K , I guess it looks nicer.

ATC - C6 Sub

ATC - C6 Sub Description: Full “SL” spec 15˝/375mm bass driver. 450W Class G amplifier. Phase adjustment. Variable cut off frequency. Variable gain. Stereo inputs. 6 year warranty. Any veneer to order. Featured veneer:Yew. Specifications: Driver: LF 375mm Amplitude Linearity (±2dB): 30Hz-300Hz...

thesourceav.com

View attachment 515476

How about $37K?

This one is +/- 4dB 13Hz-30Hz and will put out 125dB.

 

[Keith_W]

Do you know how much they would have cost if it was 100% DIY, i.e., not paying someone for checking the design and CAD drawing, not paying for CNC work, and not paying for the cabinet veneering?

I worked all that out before the project started If we are talking ONLY consumable raw materials - MDF, drivers, plate amps, veneer, glue, polyurethane, sandpaper, etc. - the total cost would probably be about $3k for two subs.

But then I don't own all the tools required. I would have to buy a jigsaw, track saw, clamps, as well as a whole bunch of measuring tools and glue-up tools. Not to mention, MDF dust is hazardous and I would need a good dust extractor. That would have raised the cost to be higher than using professional services, but it would have left me with a semi-equipped workshop which would enable me to tackle other projects. Then there is the uncertainty about the outcome given that this was going to be an expensive project and my skills are unknown and I am a complete beginner. The decision I made was to pay for professionals to do it. If I already owned a workshop, i.e. the cost is already sunk, the decision would have been much simpler. I would just DIY and save a lot of money.

 

[Imakeller]

How about a 100” Ascendo The100 for ~$150k? Concrete room not included!

THE100 SUB PRO PASSIVE SEALED

THE100 SUB PRO PASSIVE — The Most Powerful Subwoofer on EarthAn honest 100-inch subwoofer. No exaggeration. No compromise. With the 100 SUB PRO PASSIVE, ASCENDO

www.aia-cinema.com

 

[OldHvyMec]

They don't give away Funk Audio

Elite - System​

CA$17,500.00 - CA$120,000.00

or Wilson Audio.

Subsonic 4 series The price is so high that they don't list it anymore.

10 years ago, Thor's Hammer was 20-25K a pop.

I've seen custom columns that were 90K for 4 600lb columns. The 4 or 6 burl veneers were 12,000.00 usd 20 years ago. All JBL engineers did the interior and room treatment. I saw them in Aspin on a foundation job. The guy was adding a music room of all things.

I know just the outcrop foundation work was over 750K, and the room without furnishing was another 1.5 million.

Regards

 

[tineared]

I'm glad I picked up a pair of SVS SB-3000s before they discontinued the industrial metal grill. I hate the generic 70s cloth screens they use now
And they were cheap relative to how this thread's going

 

[Chrispy]

Regarding multiple vs one good sub my experience is that the ASR dogma that multiple lower performing subs are better than one higher performance sub is not always true. I have 6 subs, 2 large very high performance subs, 2 SVS SB 3000 subs which I consider rather low performance (high distortion and high group delay) , and 2 DIY sealed subs which are also low performance but in a different way than the SVS subs (not a lot of LF SPL). I have tried them in many different configurations and I have found 2 co-located high performance subs crossed relatively high to be the best for my room. This is followed closely by one high performance sub located equal distance and close the mains and crossed at "normal 80 Hz".

Multiple (2 to 4) poor subs with high distortion and high group delay, while potentially having a smoother FR do not sound as good as even one high performance sub which is not really surprising as the combination of very high distortion and the Fletcher-Munson curve means that distortion products are playing louder than the fundamental under many scenarios. You can get a feel for how poor performing many subs are from this test on ASR https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/i-measured-10-subwoofers.49042/ . Another issues is that adding additional subs usually does not increase SPL as cancellation effects start to take over especially when adding a 3rd or 4th sub. Finally the integration of 2 to 4 subs, even with all the fancy MSO and "automatic" tools is not as straightforward are many are lead to believe because in room LF measurements are inherently difficult to take and difficult to interpret.

I find 2 high performance subs co-located and crossed high allows for satisfying bass with high SPL, low distortion, low extension, stereo bass, and if powerful enough can be used to smooth the FR just as well if not better (certainly easier) that trying to locate and integrate 4 low performance subs. It also eliminates any issues with being able to "locate" subs which in my experience is much easier, even down to 50 Hz or lower, than we are lead to believe. YMMV.

What are your two higher performance subs? Mixing subs, meh.