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Why we hear what we hear

Attacks are indeed more important. Of course, since the ear does a time-frequency analysis, nobody should be surprised, and nobody who works in hearing is the slightest bit surprised.

The question is "what part of that gets to the auditory nerve" and that, frankly, is not that hard to know, once the math is examined. Now, there ARE some issues involving anti-aliasing/anti-imaging filters at 44.1kHz that might barely, maybe, conceivably (although never shown in the real world) might interact with the compression mechanism, basically as pre-echo, which is most certainly an issue with codecs. At 48khz the plausibility can not be utterly dismissed, but it's very, very farfetched. At 50khz, you're fine. The impulse response of even a ridiculous filter design is in the clear.

All of that, of course, is directed only to somebody who can still hear to 20kHz or so, which in the modern (too loud) world, is a very limited class of young people. By the time you're 30, you're SOL anywhere except maybe if you lived on the African plains with no firearms.

There is no doubt that young people MAY be able to hear somewhat over 20kHz, but as a sensation, not a tone, which is not surprising, because that's the very entrance to the cochlea as far as detector location, and that's what gets mangled thoroughly by modern life the fastest.
People quote 20kHz like Dr Olive or Toole had come off of a mountain with grey hair and tablets with 20-20kHz engraved on it.

There were studies that showed that people could AB signals with harmonics that were much higher than 20 kHz
 
People quote 20kHz like Dr Olive or Toole had come off of a mountain with grey hair and tablets with 20-20kHz engraved on it.

There were studies that showed that people could AB signals with harmonics that were much higher than 20 kHz
Tsutomu Oohashi

Need I say more.
 
Yeah… probably… dumb it down for me please.

Ok - how does the fellow fake the MRI data in the publication?

This site is called Audio Science Review.
The paper appears to be audio science related.
It is either a repeatable study or it is not.

If it is repeatable, then that 20kHz limit seems more like a thing that is engraved in stone as lore then a fact.
 
There are countless discussions and criticisms of the published work, both here and on other audio sites.

It seems you have even posted in some of the threads I linked above.

Do we really need to rehash all of that here?
 
There are countless discussions and criticisms of the published work, both here and on other audio sites.

It seems you have even posted in some of the threads I linked above.

Do we really need to rehash all of that here?
Well if the OP’s link to the video is along the possible lines of the Japanese paper, then it seems germane.

It also seems like people react to that paper in more of a histrionic fashion, than with curiousity.
It seems hard to fool an MRI machine, but I am not an MRI expert.
 
Yeah… probably… dumb it down for me please.


Ok - how does the fellow fake the MRI data in the publication?
You can read the threads linked by Beave. One aspect is a few teams have tried to replicate his results on some of these. No one could get the same results. He has claimed variations on this idea of more than 20 khz with several different ideas, tested them and gotten results. But there is nothing coherent behind them.

Sounds with high-frequency components above the human audible range improve glucose tolerance: A quasi-experimental crossover study

There was another he was in on which I cannot find at the moment. Ultrasonic sound suppression effected response in the breasts of mothers hearing infants.
 
You can read the threads linked by Beave. One aspect is a few teams have tried to replicate his results on some of these. No one could get the same results. He has claimed variations on this idea of more than 20 khz with several different ideas, tested them and gotten results. But there is nothing coherent behind them.

Sounds with high-frequency components above the human audible range improve glucose tolerance: A quasi-experimental crossover study

There was another he was in on which I cannot find at the moment. Ultrasonic sound suppression effected response in the breasts of mothers hearing infants.
Yes the replication part is important . There are many weird ” one offs ” in science.
The MRI machine don’t need to be fooled it could be other parts of the stimulus that yields the results not what the researchers think they are measuring ? Hence rigorous replication by others helps a lot .
 
No replication. Noisy setup, rather a lot of potential confusing issues present. Have you ever BEEN in an MRI? What about proper blinding, proper data presentation, positive controls, negative controls, actual in-ear measures of the 'harmonics', considerations of the interference with the machine electronically, acoustically, doppler from machine parts, transducer distortions, etc? Oh, and the "detection" from the MRI vs. the total noise of the MRI data. Remember, if you run enough people through 10 trials, you'll get a false positive inside the first 20 people. I put up a table of that a while ago somewhere around here.

It's a (*(& hard test to run, that I will say.

Also, remember, if it's in the 120+ dB SPL range, then there's skin sensation. That's not an argument, but that's not hearing.

And, of course, there's the whole decoupling in the middle ear, the actual propagation of ultrasonics in 20C 50% humidity air.

Also, raving about Floyd is so wrong it's almost funny. Those bandwidth tests go back to HELMHOLTZ. Yeah. Fletcher made some observations, ditto Zwicker, Zwislocki, Hall, Allen, Gitza, ....
 
There is no doubt that young people MAY be able to hear somewhat over 20kHz, but as a sensation, not a tone,
In my younger years, decades ago, I tested how far up I could hear and around 20kHz it felt more as a 'pressure' than a tone. When the tone got switched off (and had to be really loud) you could feel the 'pressure' was gone.

Funnily enough, while I know my hearing isn't nearly as good in HF and general 'loudness' I still do not have the impression the tonal balance of music has changed and cymbals still sound like I remember them from decades ago.
I suspect the brain is highly adaptive despite its 'microphones' getting old and worse. This is a most fascinating thing to me.
 
Thanks for r the history lesson !

One should not underestimate the knowledge of past generations . Knowledge was not well distributed in the past but it did exist :)
( hence who some crackpots think the pyramids where built by aliens and can’t give ancient people the cred of being good builders )

A parallel to the reedbook CD system . It was not technical limitations that sett the 16/44,1 it fitted human physiology snuggly . going outside’s what’s needed at the time just made it very expensive at the time not impossible! it would have been larger discs more expensive players etc etc to no benefit. If human ears would have been built differently we migth have had 11/70 or something :) ore what snuggly fitter our actual ability
The goal was perfect sound not barely passable ok sound and they did it .

The 24 bit and floating point evolution is a result of the need for transparent production tools not for the end users amusement.
 
I could hear and around 20kHz it felt more as a 'pressure' than a tone
Exactly. To make the test properly, the tone should have slow fade-in and fade-out. Sudden on/off still makes audible sensation.
 
If it takes time to move, then it seems like it is analogous to shacking a bowling ball?
But the ear can hear to 20kHz, so it obviously can wriggle around at that rate which is 0.05 msec, or 50 usec

One scientist has described it as moving a spring surrounded by corn syrup, but it's actually the thing the spring is attached to -- the basilar membrane -- and waves in the corn syrup that surrounds it that -- are moving and kind of pushing the inner hair cells (the outer hair cells move that way but also in different ways and do a different job).

I thought this in particular was a good explanation, of how the inner ear works --
This also is good though longer, and not as clear for the lay person and with less of a look at the active gain control and frequency selectivity system, but shows the corn syrup analogy:

But it also take time even after the hairs move for the potassium and calcium ions that rush into the hair cell upon hair deflection, depolarized the cell nuclear, release the neurotransmitters and cause an action potential an a neuron and then revert and then happen again.

That's where our time/sound resolution gets a little spotty. We process sounds in ear inner ear simultaneously using two sources of frequency information -- location on the basilar membrane --- the location on the membrane and the particular hair cell attached to it most activated by a specific frequency -- and nerve firing pattern -- the timing pattern of the nerve spikes are tracked and used by the brain. Below 5kHz our nerve spike patterns are phased to the signal, they repeatedly fire at the same point in the phase of the frequency being resolved, but above 5kHz the nerve firing process isn't fast enough to remain phase locked. Not coincidentally, when frequencies get above about 5kHz, we can still hear the sounds but we don't perceive them the same way -- they no longer sound like musically related pitch intervals. If you play "Mary Had a Little Lamb with frequencies only above 5kHz, you won't really hear it as having a melody.

So, our hearing is fast, but even within the range of sounds we can hear, it's not perfectly fast -- our time resolution of frequency breaks down over 4-5kHz.

It is certainly complex, but the idea that there is an importance on attack and timing seems more germane than steady-state behaviour.
In fact the diagonal coaming back from the brain to the ear, sort of squelch the steady-state sound after a while.

We're not really talking about "steady-state" behavior here, we're talking about periodic signals. And auditory science testing is done with all kinds of different signals from music to trains of clicks -- so very much pure attack sound and very momentary.

We know a lot about how the ear/brain responds to fast clicks, and fast trains and patterns of clicks. We're not as good as 50 uSec, never mind 10 uSec when it comes to, say, being able to hear a gap in pulses of broadband noise, or modulation in trains of clicks. 2-3 msec is more of out threshold there. We can process differences between sounds at one ear vs. another on shorter time frames. But our timing discrimination in other auditory processes are not equally accute.

That's why I say there is more that one element of "speed" in our hearing and difference speed and timing characteristics are involved in different processes. A lot of these inferences look at the fasted number -- 10 usecs of ITD or something -- and say, well, that's the speed humans can resolve.

Attack and sound envelope characteristics seem to be crucially important contributors to our perception of timbre, and so obviously they're crucial contributors to our experience of music. I don't think anyone would ever say otherwise, certainly I wouldn't. And not just impulse timing but system ringing after impulse, and also the timing of the harmonic spectrum envelope as well as the blended whole.

As I understand it, but I could have misunderstood, we have measurements that cover the performance of equipment in these areas -- a 10kHz square wave as a rise time in the nano seconds and has frequency components at the second harmonic that are at the very edge of human hearing -- that'll tell us if our system is fast enough to cover speeds we can hear beyond 10 uS, we can look at group delay to see how linear a system is likely to be with respect to harmonic spectrum envelope, we can look at impulse response to see how quickly or not a system stops after an impulse. In the video, IIRC, the guy asserts we don't have measurements capable of addressing these characteristics, and even if we do we don't have measurements that can resolve them at the speed our ears work. But that's just wrong. We do have these measurements and they do cover these characteristics and they are as fast or faster than our hearing.

The interaural time delay difference effects are more problematic to measure if we're all going home and listening to music over loudspeakers in our homes because room effects are going to totally swamp channel signal differences at 10 usec. But we can look at channel balances to tell us how linear things are from channel to channel up until the point when they hit the room.
 
Well, when it comes to the "we didn't know" we knew the phenomenon in the 1930's that he says we didn't know until the 1970's, about compression, for example. Ditto the "frequency selectivity" and the compression aspect of how the ear actually reacted. Look at Fletcher's masking studies in the 1930's. It's clear then. That's a touch before the 1970's, to say the least. Yes, we know more about the mechanism, but once people finally listened to Zwicker's recap of Fletcher, the question of frequency selectivity was solidly established. That's before I was born. I'm 71, you know.

The one thing I will say is that the active frequency selectivity and gain control functioning of the OHCs, isn't necessarily the impedance matching characteristics of the outer ear. What we didn't really know until the 1970s was that it was an active system, not a passive one (in cadavers studies it doesn't happen), and that it worked by proteins in the outer hair cells that are able to lengthen and shorten the outer hair cells in response to sound and to signals from the brain to the ear in order to reduce or increase sound levels resolved at the inner hair cells.

The existence of that system was hypothesized in the late 1940s, but ignore and though to be crackpot. Hearing to that point was thought to be basically a passive, mechanical, one way process. In fact it was not until the 1970s that research started revealing the existence of an active gain control and frequency selectivity function, with control from the brain to the ear, involving the outer hair cells. The so called "cochelar amplifier" -- which is different from ear tube impedance matching frequency sensitivity and which involves the ear actually making sounds (otoacoustic emissions) and outer hair cells moving to shape the signals that get to inner hair cells -- was first proposed in 1948 by Thomas Gold, but not ever show to exist or even believed to truly exist until the 1970s, and really is still not fully understood in terms of how it is driven.

It's a different topic and system than anything having to do with Fletcher or passive frequency sensitivity differences in the outer ear.

 
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He cites research for everything he quotes.
Would like to see those studies. I’d prefer proof in controlled listening, but somehow I doubt that is what the research accomplishes.

More generally, the ear mechanics discussed in this thread are fascinating - even if the more blunt instrument of “is it audible in controlled listening” ought to resolve the discussion vis-a-vis cables, amplifiers, etc.
 
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Well if the OP’s link to the video is along the possible lines of the Japanese paper, then it seems germane.

It also seems like people react to that paper in more of a histrionic fashion, than with curiousity.
It seems hard to fool an MRI machine, but I am not an MRI expert.
MRI readings have produced a lot of tomfoolery. People claim to have identified MRI signatures for all kinds of things and, like this, they are hard to replicate due to the nature of reading the scans (my own experience with this revolved around identifying dyslexia in MRIs).
 
It is nice to read the descriptions how our ears seem to work. But this has nothing to do with audio reproducer systems in a technical sense. These should put out exactly in a amplified way what was put in. If this was perfect the ear/brain system behavior is a different thing and every individual may have a slight different perception. Thus for me audio blind tests make no sense. There are different individuals testing A against B what they like more or less but not compared to reality.
 
There were studies that showed that people could AB signals with harmonics that were much higher than 20 kHz

Humans show brain activity in the presence of ultrasonic sounds, but we don't and can't hear them acoustically through our ear/brain system, we seem to perceive them through our skin, and they seem to need to be at a pretty high level of intensity and you seem to need to have a fair amount of skin exposure.

Also worth noting that research by Oohashi et al. has been scientifically controversial and contradicted by other studies, not widely replicated and confirmed. In fact attempt to confirm the research by other researchers have failed. So, take it as a possible thing that's happening but not something science has confirmed, but certainly not something that is involving our hearing ear and brain but other organs and brain centers -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypersonic_effect
 
Exactly. To make the test properly, the tone should have slow fade-in and fade-out. Sudden on/off still makes audible sensation.

Sudden onset spreads the bandwidth of a signal FAR above AND BELOW the center frequency, indeed.

The Columbia experiments in the 1970's and 1980's very much showed the active issues, but it still seems that the rigidity of the outer hair cells plays a huge part in all of that (which makes sense when you view the two membranes as high-pass filters that are coupled, with the difference being the inner hair cell motion). (This also explains why torn outer hair cells reduce sensitivity, and how the two membranes being out of phase at center frequency increase sensitivity by a factor of 2Q (q being 'q' of the filter). I think Zwislocki (sp?) was the first to catch on to this. (Note, I think current understanding also involves fluid flow AROUND the outer hair cells when rigid, and more bending when not,which makes the coupling change much more dramatic as cells depolarize.)

I'm not sure where the matching impedance came into this, except as in coupling into the window via the bones, which does start to create a drop in excitation.



.

It's a different topic and system than anything having to do with Fletcher or passive frequency sensitivity differences in the outer ear.


Fletcher showed the frequency filtering effect very clearly, and Scharf picked up on that, of course. The active nature was not so evident until later, and helped to explain how sharp the filters were. None the less, the narrowness of the filters (at normal excitation levels, not high levels) was clear. The upward spread with increased level does become more obvious as one considers the system of the basilar and tectoral membranes being coupled, quite nicely, too. Fletcher did not figure out everything with primitive equipment, no, but I think both Helmholtz and Fletcher showed frequency selectivity, Helmholtz showing it existed, and Fletcher measuring it in ways that are still remarkably good given the equipment at hand. Furthermore, the compression issues were observed clearly in the 1930's loudness work. Not a mechanism, no, but certainly an existence of compression.

Yes, people gave Zwislocki a bunch of grief, but I think he's going to end up like Wegener in the end.

One thing that hasn't entered the actual discussion yet is the rise time of real signals in a real atmosphere, and the nonlinearity of the atmosphere not very far above what some people (cringe) use as listening levels. The propagation of a rimshot, for instance, is quite remarkable, even in a dead space, you can see the spectrum evolve as it moves away from the source and drops in level, and ceases to look so much like a shock wave.
 
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Also, once again, your skin, via touch, detects very high intensity ultrasound. Ask anyone stationed on a sub.
 
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