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Why was my thread closed?

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manisandher

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My stating that I believe I hear a difference between DACs (not between my modern DACs BTW), was just context-setting for explaining my motivation for starting the thread. It had no bearing on the thread itself, or on the results of the null test, which were proving interesting, IMO.

The DAC with the highest SINAD was measuring among worst RMS Differences and absolutely the worst PK Metrics. I thought this was exactly the sort of thing that people interested in Audio Science would want to explore further.
 
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manisandher

manisandher

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You will get banned hearing difference in DAC, cable, amp.....etc

Someone's PMed me with a viable explanation of why the dCS might be sounding different.
 

solderdude

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Someone's PMed me with a viable explanation of why the dCS might be sounding different.

Who was it, what did he write and why ?

Your experiment was interesting, there were some holes in it.
The PK metric shows differences which is to be expected as different DAC chip + filtering is used.
The different numbers (below 70, which is not confirmed) are not a definitive proof of what you heard is shown by Deltawave. Even if you want it to be so.
Have you shown to yourself that differences down more than 70 dB are (clearly) audible to you ?
Have you listened to the diff file ? Did it explain what you heard ?
There is much that had to be done before admitting it as proof.

I know about blind tests, have done a few and drew my conclusions.
AB is only 'proof' to yourself. To be admitted as real proof it needs to be witnessed by someone knowledgeable or the proper program needs to be used.
The thread went into 'prove it' and 'refuse to' mode.

You posted your captures (but not original file ?). It was analyzed. It doesn't look like someone listened to it and AB'd it. That's life.
 

MAB

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Let me try to explain.
This is about the only forum where science is applied to music reproduction. And you said the magic word, that you won’t do a scientifically applied study. I agree with much of your thought process. You have some interesting results, although I find the idea of using music as a comparative tool quaint. But you refused to turn your work from personal investigation into a science experiment. Plus you do seem vested in the result, which is hard not to be, but compounds the problem. Science is hard, and if you want to overturn other people’s hard work, saying you are categorically against using a tool lost you the thread. You got the same answer my boss would give me if I showed up and said I didn’t like statistics and just wanted to eyeball the data.
 
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manisandher

manisandher

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Let me try to explain.
This is about the only forum where science is applied to music reproduction. And you said the magic word, that you won’t do a scientifically applied study. I agree with much of your thought process. You have some interesting results, although I find the idea of using music as a comparative tool quaint. But you refused to turn your work from personal investigation into a science experiment. Plus you do seem vested in the result, which is hard not to be, but compounds the problem. Science is hard, and if you want to overturn other people’s hard work, saying you are categorically against using a tool lost you the thread. You got the same answer my boss would give me if I showed up and said I didn’t like statistics and just wanted to eyeball the data.

What am I invested in exactly? That DeltaWave is a useful tool? That the dCS sounds different?
 
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manisandher

manisandher

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Who was it, what did he write and why ?

If the thread was still open (as it absolutely should be!), you would have had your answers. And I suspect everyone here would say, "of course, that'd likely be audible".

No ABX required after all, just some nifty analysis tools ;).
 

MAB

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What am I invested in exactly? That DeltaWave is a useful tool? That the dCS sounds different?
Sorry, I wasn’t specific enough. Seems you want your own method and thought process to be true. I’m the same way. It clouds the result. You need to come up with an idea, find a way to test it that’s has a chance of validity, and test it. Heck, you shouldn’t even have to participate in the testing! Most experimenters don’t include themselves in a study.
 

MAB

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If the thread was still open (as it absolutely should be!), you would have had your answers. And I suspect everyone here would say, "of course, that'd likely be audible".

No ABX required after all, just some nifty analysis tools ;).
That’s too mysterious for me!
 

JSmith

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What was the point of the thread though in the end? It started out interesting, detailed and some fine discussion points... but (and forgive me if I'm incorrect) there did seem to be a bit of an agenda developing towards the end. That possibility coupled with the comments like "ABX test results need to be taken with a pinch of salt", "I'm not going to do one", "It's a totally unnatural way to listen to music", "Because the only thing that matters to me is how music sounds. If a multitone test doesn't equate to this, then it's irrelevant to me" and suggesting Amir change his testing may have contributed to the decision.

My suggestion would be to PM @BDWoody and discuss the matter privately to ascertain the reasons, rather than starting a new thread asking why.


JSmith
 

FINFET

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I think it’s because OP’s attitude towards doing more blind test is negative that the whole thread will inevitably go to loops of “facts show” and “but I”. So your thread is closed before people’s time and efforts are wasted.

I would suggest OP to do more intensive ABX tests and firmly prove the differences are audible before talking details. When several 15/16 ABX results are shown and recording captures are uploaded, people here will be more than motivated to find out why, which can help to verify your claims in a more constructive way.
 

charleski

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Your entire thread was an attempt to explain a phenomenon which, in all likelihood, was entirely imaginary. If you want to explore why two gadgets sound different you must first, as an absolute necessity, ensure that this difference stands up in objective conditions.
 

voodooless

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In the end, the thread was closed because you had no interest in finding out wat is true or real. You had a preconceived notion, found some apparently corroborating evidence, called it a gold standard, and then ignored any and all criticisms.
 

Big White

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You will only enter this forum to look at the measurements of Dacs, if you witness the change in the sound of a cable or LPS and write about it on this forum everyone will treat you like an idiot and mock you, but there are so many people on other forums who say that there are so many idiots here...
 

TimF

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Scientific enquiry is radical and difficult to carry out because it requires discipline and work. There are many mind sets, dispositions, attitudes and ideologies that refuse scientific methods and science. I bet only a small proportion of the general population believe in science. I know educated nurses who in believe and practice magic regarding foods and diet and special essences.
 

tuga

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Whilst I agree that (blind) AB testing may be the only way to prove audibility but it may not be an effective way of revealing audibility of all artifacts/issues.
 

Sokel

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I know educated nurses who in believe and practice magic regarding foods and diet and special essences.
The closed thread somehow was not like that,the intention at first was to interpret the subjective findings using a tool that is based on science.
We can criticize the tool (if it's adequate,accurate,useful) or the methodology in that instance but the thought was solid.
Refusal of backing it up with ABX blind tests on the other hand could be avoided.
 

voodooless

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You will only enter this forum to look at the measurements of Dacs, if you witness the change in the sound of a cable or LPS and write about it on this forum everyone will treat you like an idiot and mock you,
That is not what happens. We will ask for proof, which is never presented or anecdotal at best. Then people start bringing up pseudoscience as a means to justify what they heard. Then, if after repeated debunking of the nonsense people don’t (want to) understand, that is where the mocking starts. Usually though, long before that, we’ve been called idiots or worse, as is evident by your post. What comes around, goes around.
 
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