Why the market do not move into external active design?

[Chrispy]

Why not? There are 8 core speaker cables and the Neutrik Speakon NL8 connector family. That’s sufficient for 4 channels per cable.

That's the only one I can think of....but the OP didn't say as much.

 

[Katji]

It seems you do not comprehend the situation you propose. It is a new thing generally to provide active amplification to each driver and takes generally appropriate cable/cables to accommodate. Please provide specifics of your proposal?

There's no proposal there // that's not going anywhere.

Class D is happening, low voltage amplification is viable, just not for big speakers.

Spatial audio is beginning to happen, trend is beginning. Instead of multiple big speakers around the room. Small speakers and batteries. In other words, DSP advancement.
Apple is on a roll with it. At least 1 post per week [average?] related to it in macrumors. Full-size HomePod supposedto be back in first quarter next year, with some integrated AppleTV functionality. Apple might seem relatively expensive - although not really when compared to AVR/home theatre - but it is nevertheless trend-setting in the mass market.
Soncos with small distributed amplifiers. (Might also seem relatively expensive but it not struggling to survive.)


[ Anyway, this all somewhat off-topic... ]

 

[Chrispy]

There's no proposal there // that's not going anywhere.

Class D is happening, low voltage amplification is viable, just not for big speakers.

Spatial audio is beginning to happen, trend is beginning. Instead of multiple big speakers around the room. Small speakers and batteries. In other words, DSP advancement.
Apple is on a roll with it. At least 1 post per week [average?] related to it in macrumors. Full-size HomePod supposedto be back in first quarter next year, with some integrated AppleTV functionality. Apple might seem relatively expensive - although not really when compared to AVR/home theatre - but it is nevertheless trend-setting in the mass market.
Soncos with small distributed amplifiers. (Might also seem relatively expensive but it not struggling to survive.)


[ Anyway, this all somewhat off-topic...

Meh, still has little idea of actually what's going on....but until he clarifies, who the f*ck cares?

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

That's the only one I can think of....but the OP didn't say as much.

Any new / better ideas that i didn't mention are welcome

 

[Chrispy]

Any new / better ideas that i didn't mention are welcome

Better defined by your particular requirements....but didn't look back so maybe a summarization of your needs now would be appropriate....

 

[Recluse-Animator]

That's the only one I can think of....but the OP didn't say as much.

I thought everyone at least on this thread was aware of multi core speaker cables.

 

[Katji]

A bit off topic, but I would like all active speakers to have an external amp. Then you only need one cable to hook up the speaker.

i think it's kind of on topic hehe

Most people will see that like a contradiction, or anomaly.
Or what you describe is an AVR.

First there are powered speakers - i.e., the amplifier/s are integrated. Then active speakers - imtegrated amplifers/spowered + DSP, and now probably some wireless capability.
There is good reason for amplifiers and DSP to be integrated in speakers. (Basically, it works better and the hi-fi/"expert knowledge"/synergy bs is out. Amplifiers [plural*] + DSP matched to speaker drivers and enclosures.)

etc. Let's cut to the chase.
Clarify what is meant by "external active."

First reply was on point. ...summarised. It relates to market demand, trends which have been developing over years and continue to develop. What people desire.

People change when they see a benefit. Right now, they don't see any benefit. If the benefit is truly there, then all you need to do is be patient, and things will change. Look at cell phones, for example.
And if things don't change, then we have to accept the fact that the majority of people don't see things the way we see things. Jim

Related to that, and example of big speaker DIY . DIY is not even a niche market. It has declined since 1970.
It began with "consumerism." That began with "Industrial Revolution."
TV predominated over hi-fi. So then home theatre predominated.
...That is also why hi-fi is now so full of high-end crazy bullshit - the bullshit is the only way most of them can survive in the market. [AKA "snake-oil."]

 

[Recluse-Animator]

Most people will see that like a contradiction, or anomaly.
Or what you describe is an AVR.

I see it as the best of both worlds.
They're as easy to mount as passive speakers with only one cable and no amp on the rear to be in the way mounting it on the wall or ceiling.
If the amp is on the rear of the speakers you can't easily access it to adjust things or remove it for servicing if its mounted on the wall or ceiling.
And unlike an AVR the amp and DSP is integrated by the speaker manufacturer.
Also the amp can be located in a different room or closet for better cooling.

 

[YSC]

well I think it's because the all active design is good enough for durability and performance, and for full passives it's really pointless to get a matching amp module from manufacturer:

1) speaker designers don't necessary have proper electronic knowhow to do a great amp themselves
2) small quantity amp manufacture can be costly yet with minimal performance benefit.

if the market goes for general amp modules externally for different speakers, that way there's no difference from using a generic external amp, and audiophiles do enjoy matching parts themselves, so why bother with an amp module

 

[Vacceo]

As soon as WISA plate amplifiers are available, you will see the market shift.

I think some OEMs are starting to use them. And TVs are starting to use WISA too. I think LG TV's can connect to the new Dynaudio Actives.

Forget about our niche community for a minute, and imagine the millions of people purchasing TVs. They dont want to buy stereo speakers due to the hassle, or the space taken up. If they can get over the space thing, then they can be sold a pair of speakers that can wirelessly connect to the TV directly, and have thier volume controlled by the TV at the same time from the TV remote. It needs to be convenient.

Imagine a smart TV, wall mounted, with a pair of stereo speakers out in the corners of the lounge, only plugged into wall power outlets behind them. You turn on the TV, the speakers turn on too and the volume is controlled from the TV remote, all with WISA. No thinking required. Stable. This is when the market will go full actives.

To be fair, that can be done right now with EARC. Sure, it´s an extra cable, but that is exactly what I do in my living room with a pair of LS50 Wireless II.

Wireless signal capability maybe? WiFi/Bluetooth or some other wireless technology. Then you just have a power cord. But in my opinion getting power to every speaker in a 15.2 system is going to be far more complicated than running a length of speaker wire under the rug of along the floor trim.

Atmos and DTS X codec are consolidated at this point. The biggest cable hassle is the height speakers, the baseline is still an issue but with a wider margin of integration. Adding sockets next to the ceeling? Sure, it can be done, but it´s not very common. I wouldn´t mind, though, and the benefits of an active, sealed speaker are interesting for room integration considerations (such as placing them very close to the wall or in bookshelves if they can protrude a little bit).

Related to that, and example of big speaker DIY . DIY is not even a niche market. It has declined since 1970.
It began with "consumerism." That began with "Industrial Revolution."
TV predominated over hi-fi. So then home theatre predominated.
...That is also why hi-fi is now so full of high-end crazy bullshit - the bullshit is the only way most of them can survive in the market. [AKA "snake-oil."]

You have a very good point in there. If manufacturers want to survive, they may need to rethink what they do. If your bussines is selling big, space heater boxes (amps), perhaps it would be a good idea that what you actually sell is amplification. For speakers, what you sell is not beautiful furniture (even if it may be), but sound producing devices. Good reproduction is good reproduction, no matter the source: TV, films, music, videogames, even zoom calls (teaching online with a good camera, microphone and speakers has been one of the best investments I have ever done!)

I have seen that manufacturers like Dynaudio and Buchard are moving to the little box solution. I think the general trend of the future may be that type of solution. WiSa so far only allows for 8 channels, but it they can push it to 9 baseline, 4 subwoofers and 6 height, in 24 bit 192K, that standard would just cover any user case with quality sound beyond human audible capacity.

In that scenario what would be my ideal configuration? I´d like a 7.2(4).4 system, made from LS60/50/X speakers connected to a little central box, kind of an AVP with the conventional source plugs (phono, RCA, Optical, HDMI...). If wireless, great, wireless; if not, connected to the central hub with rj45 jacks (solid method, easily avalible, plenty of options). On top of that, compatibility with Audyssey/Dirac or similarly common EQ system.

In a sense, that would be like a sort of car audio system turned home system.

 

[ZolaIII]

It happened already and its usually called soundbar's. It didn't happen on very serious level but that's not what majority is after anyway. There are places that test mentioned ones. And some can rival even rather good speakers, of course leaders are such as Samsung in a higher end (thanks to Harman purchase) and Bose and alike as Vizio in the mid tier.

The 7 Best Soundbars - Spring 2024: Reviews

The Samsung HW-Q990C is the best soundbar we've tested. This premium 11.1.4 setup is the next generation of the Samsung HW-Q990B and offers even better sound quality than its predecessor.

www.rtings.com

Scroll down to rating for all and then select music rating as a key.
Those are much more available around the globe than serious pasive or even active speakers, just don't expect them to last as long as good amplifier and pasive speakers.
Luckly there is no shortage in pasive bookshelf speakers which are designed to go lo enough that you really don't need a sub in the small to medium sized room (which is again what most folks will tend to use them). For example this category even starts at 300 $/€ with a likes like QA 3030i for 500 $/€ you can get Elac's DBR62 (which I really like) or for 750 you can get Polk R200.
There's of course a flood of ctive one's.
So it's pretty much to your tastes and expectations and hopefully it will stay like that.
I personally prefer integrated amplifier separately and pasive speakers.
Old folks who have good flour standing thre way salons don't really need to change them for life probably, while younger generations don't have a salon for such to begin with (so it's usually two ways + sub). Dye open source speakers are serious thing when you want to skip a bail and invest your money primary in the drivers and all do it requires some skills and knowledge (which is a good thing in today's world) but sometimes even the only way as industry will skip a really good one's if they are to expensive for them to make a serious profit on such (for example more premium larger Foster full range one's).
Best regards.

 

[sq225917]

I guess a speaker designer could make a passive speaker without crossover and simply provide a xo/peq file for the owner to use with any dsp amp of their choice.

I actually think that would be a great transitional product as it offers the benefits of active dsp/eq while also offering the choice and upgrade path that many audiophiles require.

It'd need analogue inputs too.

 

[DSJR]

My take as an industry 'oldie.'

I think we're spoiled here, by highly educated it and electronics tech-savvy people with a keen interest in music and the means of reproducing it.

Certainly in the UK, many audiophiles came up with aspirations to the Linn-Naim way of doing things and going active with these companies involved many MANY boxes, cables, a dealer living nearby to set it all up for best subjective balance (and keeping your turntable set up just right) and last but not least, HIDEOUSLY HIGH expense. the Non Linn-Naim people just ignored the whole active thing and went with expensive Sonus Fabers, B&W N800 series and similar driven by an often US made behemoth hot running bling box with plenty of power on tap into awkward loads...

I came by ATC back in 1990 or so, as a pal wanted to get live sound levels in his listening room. The usual pro speaker makers of the time (JBL and Tannoy) didn't seem interested in a domestic user of their larger pro models, yet ATC had their full now classic range (including the 300A's for a while) available in wood veneers and with grilles to offer some dust exclusion from their sticky domes.

My local audio 'salon' has ATC and sells a few, but the focus is on Naim and Kudos if an active upgrade ladder route is sought and I believe Accuphase and top line passive Dynaudio is another for them (they also stock a good range of Chord Electronics' products - amps and dacs, so this will give an indication of their clients' spending power).

Q Acoustics make a couple of what may be 'powered passive' models and a pal has one of them and rates them very highly (their passives are pretty darned good even before building the amp modules in).

I'm too old fashioned to seriously investigate the sota tech available now in some speakers, but as my lot age and pass on, the young set currently into headphones may well look to discrete but good sounding sound systems of great ability, where active operation and built in amps talking wirelessly to each other with low or managed latency will become the norm.

It could be exciting times ahead for the industry, but some of us old fossils may have to make way to allow it to develop methinks...

 

[Vacceo]

Backtracking a bit on what I posted, I just realized it is actually possible. It can be done with Genelec monitors, the only problem would be "the box" to send signals: that´d have to be an AVP with balanced outputs. And that right there is where the pitfall is.

 

[Tangband]

That's it, why? External DSP, power amps.. should be even cheaper and better

Modify already pasive speakers should be very hard for the owners?



Speaker industry its kind of lazy... and yet very expensive... The old folks don't even wanna change their speakers because of the industry laziness... we still have very big speakers with no bass

Bass drivers are the worst, because ''surrounds'' in the drivers are still the same for the mayority, only few improvement and very expensive.., everything is very unefective and yet very expensive for what it is. Only China are pushing this a little bit.. and maybe some ''DIY'' guys who can buy very good drivers and make his speakers in his country, buy speaker buy some Accuton drivers and make some speaker like Tidal/etc, lol.
For example a diy guy sells a similar speaker ( image below ) for 6000 usd ~ in my country, accuton drivers
accuton 8.5'' bass drivr

View attachment 222932
Another diy accuton

My take on this :

Because the hifi industry is conservative, the business also want many different products to be sold ( amplifiers, dacs, streamers , poweramps and passive loudspeakers ) .

People like Steve Guttenberg has actively, until now , promoted passive designs and people believe him.

This has nothing to do with absolute quality - a 100% integrated dsp loudspeaker might technically and audible be better but thats not the point. A separate dsp active system with separate products might be even better but there is still the belief that passive speakers are really good.

The sellers in the stores dont want those separate modern dsp products , they want to sell passive speakers and separate poweramps. Most customers believe what they read in the hifi press, so they are often undereducated and missinformed.

The ” lifestyle” business , with non- hifi products like mono speakers from Sonos or Bose is the opposite - everything including dsp and bluetooth is built into the speaker . The sound is bad and the price is low.

Those customers just want some sound and really dont care about sound quality.

 

[Tangband]

Agreed. And "those customers" seem to be 90% of the market ...... or more. Jim

True.

 

[kipman725]

D&B Audiotechnik use this approach with the amplifiers and speakers sold together but different units.

 

[fpitas]

A lot of audiophiles fervently believe that DSP cannot sound good. As long as that attitude exists, high-end active speakers will be fairly rare.

 

[wwenze]

The subwoofer of a 2.1 system is what you're looking for...

Put simply, it saves money because you need one less enclosure. It also saves space.

A lot of audiophiles fervently believe that DSP cannot sound good. As long as that attitude exists, high-end active speakers will be fairly rare.

In that case it depends on the definition of high-end. A good percentage of the highest-scoring speakers here are active.

If you mean expensive active speakers are rare, then yes.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

For example passives speaker could be more smart..
Speakers should have *everyone*, have multiples crossover for bass magnament, for example everyone should have a 80hz crossover, so the mini dsp box is not longer needed.. And you can integrate your sun better than your main running full range, but even something bery hi end like kef reference 1 meta, is very dumb and can't modify anything