Why Roon?

[sritacco]

I went down the Roon rabbit hole and emerged out the other side feeling as if it doesn’t provide enough benefit considering the cost and the drawbacks that come with using non-native software. Of course, others will come to different conclusions based upon their specific needs.

If anyone needs a mint Intel NUC that’s ready to go as a Roon server, I’ll make you a smokin’ deal.

Which model and how much?

 

[Pluto]

It's hard to argue that's a "massive rip off"

OK, let me try.

Let's compare with JRiver which costs $60 per platform or $80 for a license covering all the platforms on which they operate. Their policy is that you may use a single license on “all your computers, within reason”. A major version update typically costs about $40 but it's important to understand that, should you choose not to upgrade, you retain the right to continue to use your existing version indefinitely. I know several audio-only users who are entirely happy with a version several years old because, quite frankly, JRiver cracked audio playback a long time ago and there remains little to be done.

Comparing with the cheapest Roon option, $10/month. That's $120 per annum but my understanding is that Roon operates entirely on the 'rental' model; that is, the moment you choose to stop paying, you loose the right to use the software. There was one thing in their self-promotion that truly made me shudder. “Discovery algorithms being trained by 20 million listens every month by the most capable music enthusiasts”. Now I truly don't know what Roon are doing here (does anybody?) but if there are aspects to computer audio playback that are adjustable by the popular vote then Roon truly have discovered something unique

Roon appear to be truly immersed in the MQA legend and clearly have a good business arrangement with like-minded hardware companies. Roon is clearly the more expensive product and, quite frankly, I'm finding it a bit tricky to comprehend what I'm getting for the extra outlay but, looking at their web site, I get the feeling that they are very much trying to market Roon as a “lifestyle” product, comparable in price to some of the "massive rip off" priced hardware they are seen to be in bed with. It is, in fact, audio playback software with a few bells & whistles.

 

[ahofer]

I think we are one or two generations of Raspberry Pi development from running Roon on that platform, although with a separate Linux build (not ROCK, which is for Intel chips).

 

[ezra_s]

FWIW I bought this fanless pc a year ago.
https://www.amazon.es/gp/product/B087H4M7NL/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
It's been fast and reliable with utter silence, and low consumption.
Cost circa €170.
NLA, but Minisforum have other models.
Update:- ex https://www.amazon.es/MINIS-FORUM-P...1&keywords=MINIS+FORUM&qid=1619647750&sr=8-14

Thanks I started checking those, but I read some comments that those microprocessors might not be enough for ROON Core and some DSP settings, not that I use it too much, parametric EQ, speaker distance, perhaps headroom management.

Do you use it for roon without issue?

For instance, what I usually have in dsp settings

 

[ezra_s]

Hey guys, about the DSP settings in ROON. I am curious about the speaker distance setting.

Anyone knows the science applied behind this? I have read that some active speakers have dsp settings for similar things like this and their placement.

So, what changes if for example I set it up as my speakers are 100cm to me (as in near field) as opposed to setting them as 300cm or not setting it at all? What's changed?

 

[SKBubba]

There was one thing in their self-promotion that truly made me shudder. “Discovery algorithms being trained by 20 million listens every month by the most capable music enthusiasts”. Now I truly don't know what Roon are doing here (does anybody?) but if there are aspects to computer audio playback that are adjustable by the popular vote then Roon truly have discovered something unique

This is their "Valence" feature, which is used for their "radio" function (automatically playing similar tracks after the end of the queue) and their similar album/artist recommendations.

It's allegedly AI based, and radio is supposedly trained by user thumbs up/thumbs down feedback at the track level. Two problems with that.

One, who sits there watching each track as it pops up, waiting to give a thumbs up/down? Too much like work. Plus, it prompts before the track even plays, so how are you supposed to know?

Two, there aren't enough users to collect enough meaningful data as compared to Spotify or even Tidal with their millions of users, both of which do a better job at "radio." Roon's radio frequently gets stuck playing the same handful of album/artists over and over, and it makes some weird picks sometimes.

On the other hand, Roon radio looks across your library, albums you have included in your library from streaming services, and albums at streaming services that aren't in your library. So it turns up some hidden/forgotten and new-to-you gems from time to time.

The similar album/artist recommendations are usually pretty good. You can go down a rabbit hole picking a recommended album, then other recommended albums based on that recommendation, and so forth on and on all day long. (I generally prefer this over radio for discovery. You can build up a library and use the Roon focus/bookmark features to create dynamically updated sets of, for example, "picks" from particular genre(s), decades, etc. for playback.)

Not sure how the thumbs up/down feedback influences recommendations v. general play statistics gathered across all users.

 

[symphara]

This is their "Valence" feature, which is used for their "radio" function (automatically playing similar tracks after the end of the queue) and their similar album/artist recommendations.

It's allegedly AI based, and radio is supposedly trained by user thumbs up/thumbs down feedback at the track level. Two problems with that.

One, who sits there watching each track as it pops up, waiting to give a thumbs up/down? Too much like work. Plus, it prompts before the track even plays, so how are you supposed to know?

Two, there aren't enough users to collect enough meaningful data as compared to Spotify or even Tidal with their millions of users, both of which do a better job at "radio." Roon's radio frequently gets stuck playing the same handful of album/artists over and over, and it makes some weird picks sometimes.

On the other hand, Roon radio looks across your library, albums you have included in your library from streaming services, and albums at streaming services that aren't in your library. So it turns up some hidden/forgotten and new-to-you gems from time to time.

The similar album/artist recommendations are usually pretty good. You can go down a rabbit hole picking a recommended album, then other recommended albums based on that recommendation, and so forth on and on all day long. (I generally prefer this over radio for discovery. You can build up a library and use the Roon focus/bookmark features to create dynamically updated sets of, for example, "picks" from particular genre(s), decades, etc. for playback.)

Not sure how the thumbs up/down feedback influences recommendations v. general play statistics gathered across all users.

I got a freebie Apple Music subscription for a few months and I have to say that I’m really impressed with the recommendations. It blows the socks of Tidal and certainly Qobuz, which in my experience runs out of steam very quickly on finding stuff I’d actually enjoy.

 

[Jimbob54]

OK, let me try.

Let's compare with JRiver which costs $60 per platform or $80 for a license covering all the platforms on which they operate. Their policy is that you may use a single license on “all your computers, within reason”. A major version update typically costs about $40 but it's important to understand that, should you choose not to upgrade, you retain the right to continue to use your existing version indefinitely. I know several audio-only users who are entirely happy with a version several years old because, quite frankly, JRiver cracked audio playback a long time ago and there remains little to be done.

Comparing with the cheapest Roon option, $10/month. That's $120 per annum but my understanding is that Roon operates entirely on the 'rental' model; that is, the moment you choose to stop paying, you loose the right to use the software. There was one thing in their self-promotion that truly made me shudder. “Discovery algorithms being trained by 20 million listens every month by the most capable music enthusiasts”. Now I truly don't know what Roon are doing here (does anybody?) but if there are aspects to computer audio playback that are adjustable by the popular vote then Roon truly have discovered something unique

Roon appear to be truly immersed in the MQA legend and clearly have a good business arrangement with like-minded hardware companies. Roon is clearly the more expensive product and, quite frankly, I'm finding it a bit tricky to comprehend what I'm getting for the extra outlay but, looking at their web site, I get the feeling that they are very much trying to market Roon as a “lifestyle” product, comparable in price to some of the "massive rip off" priced hardware they are seen to be in bed with. It is, in fact, audio playback software with a few bells & whistles.

I would ditch Roon pretty sharpish if anyone could point me to an equivalent that can do all or most of the following:

Merge my local library with streaming favs/ library (Qobuz for me) but I could move streaming service if alt. software was compatible with another streaming service;

DSP and then send the processed signal over network to my streamer (not USB).

Its far too expensive but dammit, it works exactly as I need it to.

 

[Zensō]

I got a freebie Apple Music subscription for a few months and I have to say that I’m really impressed with the recommendations. It blows the socks of Tidal and certainly Qobuz, which in my experience runs out of steam very quickly on finding stuff I’d actually enjoy.

Agreed. I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm finding Apple Music recommendations nearly as good as Spotify recommendations. They've definitely improved over time. Both are far beyond Tidal and Qobuz.

 

[Loathecliff]

Thanks I started checking those, but I read some comments that those microprocessors might not be enough for ROON Core and some DSP settings, not that I use it too much, parametric EQ, speaker distance, perhaps headroom management.

Do you use it for roon without issue?

For instance, what I usually have in dsp settings

View attachment 127060

Ezra, I don't use Roon. I looked at this thread because I related to the title.
I thought I was missing something. Now I know I'm not.
The Minisforum N40 is the fastest of the three mini PCs I have, but being roon-free, I cannot answer your questions

 

[ahofer]

I will say, Roon occasionally throws in weird tracks in its radio feature. I started with Mozart wind concertos and it just stuck in Que Sera Sera by Sumi Jo.

 

[Audiotone]

I'm curious about what others find compelling about Roon.

I've used a Sonos Connect and the Sonos apps to play flac music ripped from CDs for over 10 years and due to COVID boredom I started looking at some new alternatives. I had a few DVD-Audio and SACD titles from years ago (and players that broke and I tossed) that I ripped so I picked up a Topping E30 DAC and attached it to an old mini-PC I had on hand. First I tried Volumio. I liked it so much, I bought it. It only seemed fair. Such a nice piece of software...
I've played with Kodi a bit... thinking about an open DVR solution because TiVo seems to be on the way out.

Then there is Roon. A subscription to listen to my own music? Honestly, WTF? I loaded it too. I'm listening through it now. I don't expect I'll pay for it.
It just seems crazy.

https://www.daphile.com/ is also an option…its free.

 

[ezra_s]

https://www.daphile.com/ is also an option…its free.

Aside from Library management, I think the key point is DSP. Which alternatives offer DSP?

 

[Burning Sounds]

Aside from Library management, I think the key point is DSP. Which alternatives offer DSP?

JRiver - either its own DSP or DSP convolution files from the likes of Acourate or Audiolense. It also can use VST plugins - there are some useful metering plugins showing peak, RMS and LUFS. Not to mention its WDM driver that enables you to route any external music source through its DSP. It is considerably more versatile than Roon in this regard.

 

[ctakim]

Yep, Roon is truly a master ripoff but hey if you like it and have money to waist why not it’s your money!
In addition it doesn’t work on Apple Music so no thanks

Hey, I know I've gained a few pounds since starting to use Roon, but leave my waist out of it!

 

[sritacco]

Initially I didn't like the idea of a subscription service to listen to my own music, but honestly calling something that cost $115/year a massive rip off seems hyperbolic. Three years of subscription and $130 for the NUC I bought (to run it on) is about the same cost as a Sonos Port. It's good software too...

 

[ezra_s]

JRiver - either its own DSP or DSP convolution files from the likes of Acourate or Audiolense. It also can use VST plugins - there are some useful metering plugins showing peak, RMS and LUFS. Not to mention its WDM driver that enables you to route any external music source through its DSP. It is considerably more versatile than Roon in this regard.

Thanks, will definetly try it.

 

[Wes]

Roon is nice if you have a mix of different sources (local files plus streaming) and end points (Sonos, Airplay, wired DACs, etc.). The large amount of metadata they pull in is great, but I find the interface sub-par on iOS devices, which are my primary controllers. I'm looking at other solutions now due to their inability (or refusal) to develop a native iOS app (people have been asking Roon for a native app on iOS for years).

iTunes?

 

[Wes]

Au contraire -- what is the primary route through which iOS apps are sold? The App Store, over which Apple has total dominance. Anything that appears, to Apple and its lawyers, not to be a neatly fitting jigsaw piece within the grand design specified, operated and maintained by Apple will not be granted sanctuary within the Apple ecosystem.

I am totally down with excluding invasive species.

 

[Sukie]

I personally find it rather amusing that ASR, which to my mind is the place to get down-to-earth advice for finding cost effective, well performing audio products, and is scathing towards the lofty “audiophile” snake oil, seems to look very favorably at Roon, which to me falls very clearly in the latter bucket.

Snake oil implies no perceivable (or measurable) benefit. This is not the case with Roon - DSP, multiple endpoints, seamless integration of local and streaming library. I have yet to find any other software that achieves the things that Roon achieves.

You may not like Roon and it may not add value to your set up. But for me, and for many others, it does. This added value is demonstrable and therefore Roon cannot, in any way, shape or form, be described as "snake oil".