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Why Pay More For Purifi 9040 vs Hypex NCX2k?

Because of the speakers being different, unless the amp is performing outside of their parameters. DSP isn't artificial, it works just like a passive crossover but allows you to fix your room problems which designers would have no way of knowing, which is the biggest issue with your sound outside of the speakers themselves.

sure a great pair of speakers is different then a pair of not so great. id say that is why people invest in better speakers..

ofc DSP is artificial.. what are you talking about. by utilizing DSP you are tailoring the signal to your liking. its an advanced form of turning the bass knob on your old amp. oh hey.. my speakers now have the bass I wanted in this giant livingroom! nvm i`ll keep them they are brilliant!!
 
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Speaker design, room interaction, and physical placement within a room absolutely affects the soundstage. Some speaker designs require extreme toe-in (angle) to achieve the same soundstage as a speaker that requires no toe-in.
There is a reason in some setups that all a listener has to do is move their head a few inches and the soundstage changes noticeably.

this is true. however some speakers have better soundstage just about in any situation. no matter the placement, room type or toe-in. and it have little to do with frequency curves. its simply in this respect - a better performing speaker
 
this is true. however some speakers have better soundstage just about in any situation. no matter the placement, room type or toe-in. and it have little to do with frequency curves. its simply in this respect - a better performing speaker
1) You keep downplaying the importance of frequency response in how we hear sound, which is wild as it is a fundemental aspect of audio science.
2) Even the best designed speakers will suffer from inadequate placement, that is just physics.
3) You say "a better performing speaker"...you'd be surprised at what aspects we measure of speakers to deem them better performing over other speakers (hint: FR is one of them).
 
ofc DSP is artificial.. what are you talking about. by utilizing DSP you are tailoring the signal to your liking. its an advanced form of turning the bass knob on your old amp. oh hey.. my speakers now have the bass I wanted in this giant livingroom! nvm i`ll keep them they are brilliant!!
Two channel stereo is not artificial?

Have you thought about what the sound field of the featured artist at the center of the stage is like in real life, with sound radiating out from the middle of the stage, versus the phantom center of two waves radiating out from the left and right speakers? Totally different.
 
ofc DSP is artificial.. what are you talking about. by utilizing DSP you are tailoring the signal to your liking. its an advanced form of turning the bass knob on your old amp. oh hey.. my speakers now have the bass I wanted in this giant livingroom! nvm i`ll keep them they are brilliant!!
The use of DSP or bass management isn't artificial, it corrects your speakers response to deal with *your* room's problems. It's still the same speaker and as I said designers can't possibly know each room a speaker is placed in. There is nothing artificial about it, it's the same speaker but a corrected low frequency response due to *your* room changing it's natural response. This isn't difficult at all.

You should read up just a little bit on how rooms and speakers interact. A speaker's measurements will not be the same once they are placed in your room, especially below the Schroeder frequency. I suggest picking up Floyd Toole's book Sound Reproduction, it may be a little deep at first but you can learn a lot.
 
Two channel stereo is not artificial?

Have you thought about what the sound field of the featured artist at the center of the stage is like in real life, with sound radiating out from the middle of the stage, versus the phantom center of two waves radiating out from the left and right speakers? Totally different.
view was in relation to a original songs content
 
view was in relation to a original songs content
The only definite, comparable way would be the control room sound where the sale was made and the one in your room.
Even the pure recording (as much as purist as I am I have to be fair) is not what the artist indented, what he did indented and bought is what he heard at the control room, so recording+gear+room.

Some of us do treat so to avoid big corrections but still, big or small corrections are needed.
Even if you wanted to replicate that control room sound.
 
The use of DSP or bass management isn't artificial, it corrects your speakers response to deal with *your* room's problems. It's still the same speaker and as I said designers can't possibly know each room a speaker is placed in. There is nothing artificial about it, it's the same speaker but a corrected low frequency response due to *your* room. This isn't difficult at all.

You should read up just a little bit on how rooms and speakers interact. A speaker's measurements will not be the same once they are placed in your room, especially below the Schroeder frequency. I suggest picking up Floyd Toole's book Sound Reproduction, it may be a little deep at first but you can learn a lot.

no I like DSP a lot. very useful, particularly in car audio. it is severe manipulation of the signal tho...imo. guess it comes down to what we perceive as artificial. we just have to agree to disagree on that one
 
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different amp topology design between hypex, purify and ice. and different electrical components in the circuitry
The whole goal of the design is to ensure none of these differences matter as long as the amp remains in its normal operating window.

The nice thing about amplifiers, of course, is that you have a handy reference for what your output should look like right at the input, and thus, you can correct any errors in the output (or at least anything enclosed in the feedback loop), provided the amp isn't overloaded.
 
you can't discuss with people that goes against categorical scientific evidence.

is as simply as that, they're right whatever you said because they don't use scientific arguments, only generic audiophile mantras or flawed experiences.
they have the right to be wrong, and it's ok.
 
Loudspeakers are not resistive loads; they are complex electro-mechanical systems [...].

Depending on the design of the power supply, current-delivery limits, protection mechanisms, output stage stability, and the available feedback margin under stress, amplifiers can respond very differently when the load becomes demanding. This may show up as [...].

In such situations, amplifiers, regardless of topology, do not remain indistinguishable.

And it would be very easy to setup a proper ABX test to confirm your assertion that the amplifiers are distinguishable.
 
no I like DSP a lot. very useful, particularly in car audio. it is severe manipulation of the signal tho...imo. guess it comes down to what we perceive as artificial. we just have to agree to disagree on that one
I'll try one more time, it's not the original signal as it is your speakers play back of that signal.Do you want your speakers to change the sound or be as faithful as possible to the original recording? I have speakers that measure, anechoic, ruler flat but once placed in a different environment the low frequency does not remain that way and needs to be corrected. Correcting that is an attempt to keep that signal neutral, or as close as possible.
 
And it would be very easy to setup a proper ABX test to confirm your assertion that the amplifiers are distinguishable.
If you have ambitions to do so, go ahead and have fun!
 
Yes, I don't find the examples very helpful either, but I also don't like ASR's general credo that amplifiers sound the same when they measure the same.
In my opinion, the measuring stations used are not complex enough or do not represent the truly complex load of a difficult-to-operate loudspeaker.

Even though modern amplifiers measure essentially identical at typical listening levels and into benign load, and therefore sound indistinguishable under those conditions, that does not mean they behave the same under all conditions.

Loudspeakers are not resistive loads; they are complex electro-mechanical systems with significant impedance variation, phase shifts, and back-EMF. Once the load stops being linear and the amplifier is no longer driving an idealised resistor, the operating conditions can shift far away from the assumptions of purely linear, voltage-source behaviour.

Depending on the design of the power supply, current-delivery limits, protection mechanisms, output stage stability, and the available feedback margin under stress, amplifiers can respond very differently when the load becomes demanding. This may show up as earlier or later onset of compression, different clipping behaviour, variations in how well the amplifier rejects back-EMF, or differences in stability when faced with capacitive or inductive components of the load. These behaviours are rarely captured by standard measurements into a fixed resistive dummy load but can become relevant with real music driving real loudspeakers, especially when high SPLs, low impedance dips, or extreme phase angles are involved.

In such situations, amplifiers, regardless of topology, do not remain indistinguishable. The practical differences arise not because amplifiers have a “sound” of their own, but because they differ in how far they can stay within their linear operating region under dynamic, stressful conditions. Where one amplifier may remain clean, another may already be limiting, invoking protection, or approaching clipping. And these behaviours can become audible, not as tonal coloration but as differences in headroom, dynamics, and control, which are at the end hearable.

In short: under normal conditions, a good amplifier is a good amplifier. But once a loudspeaker presents a challenging load or demands high, fast current peaks, the determining factor is not the circuit class but the overall robustness of the amplifier and his power supply. How well it maintains linearity under stress can vary and that variance is precisely where audible differences may arise, even though standard bench measurements into simple loads show almost no divergence.
I sort of agree. If an amp reacts to a variable or just demanding load, or the program material drains its power reserves, it will absolutely sound different. Some of this falls under “well designed”, though. Amps should have low output impedance and power adequate to the load. For the most part, this is pretty easy, and the Class-D amps mentioned in this thread can power most anything, even, I think, up to some of the infamous Apogee speakers. I remember Alan March putting one of his amps under a 2 ohm load at high power and running it continuously in a video (which is here somewhere).

However, @pma has suggested some alternative measurements to examine power exhaustion (if I remember correctly) and that seems like a good idea in concept.

But it pays to remember that music is, generally, not nearly as demanding as test tones. A lot of people wave their hands at the complexity of the musical signal (nods to Fourier) as if to suggest that the opposite were true. One of the many warning signs of a charlatan or ignoramus.
 
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Because of the speakers being different, unless the amp is performing outside of their parameters. DSP isn't artificial, it works just like a passive crossover but allows you to fix your room problems which designers would have no way of knowing, which is the biggest issue with your sound outside of the speakers themselves.
Other than the fact that DSP is limited by the amount of processor power and amount and speed of the memory available plus the fact that the signal has to be converted to digital then back to analog all end up diminishing the original signal to some point. I know this from testing 5 different DSP units against a bunch of analog eqs and crossovers, the sound with all controls set to flat and implementing just the crossover on the DSP was enough for me to obviously notice a loss in "fringe" sounds and very slight details were lost with DSP.

Ive always said this, most systems are not high enough resolution in the first place to hear the loss presented by DSP use. Once you have a system that can audibly reproduce and convey sound accurately, you will realize the loss in complex sound waves due to DSP limitations.

Until there is a next level conversion in DSP which also has the power and memory to do it, I won't consider DSP for anything but a surround system, which I don't own.
 
Other than the fact that DSP is limited by the amount of processor power and amount and speed of the memory available plus the fact that the signal has to be converted to digital then back to analog all end up diminishing the original signal to some point. I know this from testing 5 different DSP units against a bunch of analog eqs and crossovers, the sound with all controls set to flat and implementing just the crossover on the DSP was enough for me to obviously notice a loss in "fringe" sounds and very slight details were lost with DSP.

Ive always said this, most systems are not high enough resolution in the first place to hear the loss presented by DSP use. Once you have a system that can audibly reproduce and convey sound accurately, you will realize the loss in complex sound waves due to DSP limitations.

Until there is a next level conversion in DSP which also has the power and memory to do it, I won't consider DSP for anything but a surround system, which I don't own.
You be you, but here we only value blind ABX testing. Also, I think you are misinformed about DSP 'diminishing' the signal.
 
Other than the fact that DSP is limited by the amount of processor power and amount and speed of the memory available plus the fact that the signal has to be converted to digital then back to analog all end up diminishing the original signal to some point. I know this from testing 5 different DSP units against a bunch of analog eqs and crossovers, the sound with all controls set to flat and implementing just the crossover on the DSP was enough for me to obviously notice a loss in "fringe" sounds and very slight details were lost with DSP.

Ive always said this, most systems are not high enough resolution in the first place to hear the loss presented by DSP use. Once you have a system that can audibly reproduce and convey sound accurately, you will realize the loss in complex sound waves due to DSP limitations.

Until there is a next level conversion in DSP which also has the power and memory to do it, I won't consider DSP for anything but a surround system, which I don't own.
There’s a test you can take here with eight cycles through DAC-ADC vs original (see below). DSP takes very little computing power. I don’t think your claims are plausible in ABX testing, but perhaps your DSP units have some other shameful defect.

 
Wow - that was a blast. Glad I missed most of it at the time.
 
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