Why no turntables?

[Bob from Florida]

I actually succeeded in getting a friend to adopt a DSP in his tube/turntable system Because - it works - and he admits that. But he still loves to tinker with the tuning of his turntable.
Also got two others to include an old style equalizer in their turntable system, to counter their troubled sound - also because - it was not digital - you know - the enemy - the dark side

Usually, if you can convince them, that you only alter the bass, and don't interfere with the midrange/tweeter - they soften up

You have got to leave them just a little "magic", so there's something to fiddle with

Parks Waxwing does it all.

 

[Alexander Gödde]

These “forget about fidelity if you listen to vinyl” posts make it seem like if you walk into a room where a well-pressed, well-mastered LP is playing on good gear, you won’t hear beautiful music but will instead be overwhelmed by noise, distortion, and crippled sound quality. That’s nuts.

Of course vinyl can sound very good under the right conditions, and I understand the ritual and visual aspects which add to the experience. I would never claim that people who enjoy vinyl are not hearing music reproduced, or, idiocy of idiocies, that there is something wrong with their enjoyment.

However, nobody should advise people looking for great sound playback that vinyl is the way to go. Today you obviously start with a digital source (and high-bitrate lossily compressed streaming is perfectly fine). Vinyl can be a side-quest for those who e.g. want nice big cover art, like to browse a physical collection (much nicer with vinyl than CDs), want to fiddle with an eletrcomechanical device, find that listening to vinyl helps them listen to an album in full rather than skipping a lot, want to dig deeper into a genre and access recordings that never made it to digital (e.g. a lot of the history of dance music is vinyl-only), or many other completely valid motivations which have nothing to do with sound quality.

 

[watchnerd]

(and high-bitrate lossily compressed streaming is perfectly fine)

Ewww.

Smells like MQA.

In 2025 with ubiquitous broadband and cheap storage, FLAC for me please.

 

[Robin L]

Ewww.

Smells like MQA.

In 2025 with ubiquitous broadband and cheap storage, FLAC for me please.

A: people always overestimate their hearing ability.

B: Streamed FLAC is easy to find.

C: People who want to play LPs will play LPs.

 

[watchnerd]

A: people always overestimate their hearing ability.

B: Streamed FLAC is easy to find.

C: People who want to play LPs will play LPs.

Streamed FLAC isn't lossily compressed streaming, though.

 

[Robin L]

Streamed FLAC isn't lossily compressed streaming, though.

I know. But I also know that a lot of people can't tell the difference between FLAC and 320 kbps MP3.

 

[watchnerd]

I know. But I also know that a lot of people can't tell the difference between FLAC and 320 kbps MP3.

Sometimes I can, sometimes I can't.

I took a test (including the Suzanne Vega clip), got 4 out of 6 right.

But, just as importantly, I like being independent from The Man and his services.

 

[JeffS7444]

I got mixed feelings about this video from Fernando / SkiFi Audio: I thought it was clever of him to clamp a transducer to his bench as a means of delivering a standardized test of turntable vibration isolation, and thought his explorations with an inexpensive EMI meter were potentially interesting. But frustrating because although he states that the area traversed by the stylus is most critical, he almost completely glosses over it! And felt his comparison between Technics SL1200G vs SL1500c lacked consistency. Overall, I felt he had some good ideas for testing, but I'd have liked to see the two turntables measured exactly the same way, concentrating on areas likely to matter the most.

Also, he uses a 40 Hz signal for testing vibration isolation, but I would have liked to see this lowered to 30 Hz and below. But maybe that's asking a bit too much of unsprung designs such as these.

 

[Chrispy]

For me, yeah. Although not the need but the ability.

Or try out new carts or loading if I want to tweak the sound.

Or listen to different pressings of the same album.

I have digital when I want low effort high fidelity.

And reel to reel when I want a halfway point.

Then again I wear mechanical watches because they’re fun.

This is an entertainment hobby, after all.

LOL low effort high fidelity vs fiddling with lower fidelity stuff....that's funny. Watches are weird too. YMMV...

 

[JeffS7444]

For some reason, I've been in a turntable-shopping mood, but thank goodness I've been slow to spend money, because I've changed my mind at least a half-dozen times already

 

[DVDdoug]

I took a test (including the Suzanne Vega clip), got 4 out of 6 right.

We're getting completely off-topic here but my ABX chart (downloaded from a link that's now dead ) says there's a 34% chance of "guessing' 4 of 6 correctly. On average, random guessing would get 3 of 6 right. You need at least 10 trials to get a statistically meaningful result and there is always SOME chance/probability of guessing them all correctly no matter how may trials there are.

And... IMO, if you can't get it right 100% of the time it's not THAT important.

 

[watchnerd]

LOL low effort high fidelity vs fiddling with lower fidelity stuff....that's funny. Watches are weird too. YMMV...

Vintage cars are also high effort vs modern cars.

There are some who get joy from trying to make something anachronistic as good as it can be.

If you're not one of those, vinyl is probably not for you.

 

[watchnerd]

We're getting completely off-topic here but my ABX chart (downloaded from a link that's now dead ) says there's a 34% chance of "guessing' 4 of 6 correctly. On average, random guessing would get 3 of 6 right. You need at least 10 trials to get a statistically meaningful result and there is always SOME chance/probability of guessing them all correctly no matter how may trials there are.

And... IMO, if you can't get it right 100% of the time it's not THAT important.

Agreed.

But, also, in today's age, I just don't see the point in bothering with lossy.

 

[amirm]

Does @amirm have records to use with the testing of any turntable ? ie records with tones ?

At one point I bought a number of test records. The problem is, what would I be testing other than speed? Any other measurement would just as well show what the cartridge is doing, or alignment of the table. If there is a way useful testing can be done, I am game.

 

[MRC01]

At one point I bought a number of test records. The problem is, what would I be testing other than speed? Any other measurement would just as well show what the cartridge is doing, or alignment of the table. If there is a way useful testing can be done, I am game.

A different way to put the question: what distinguishes a well engineered turntable? A few things come to mind:
Wow & flutter: in addition to basic rotational speed accuracy
Vibration/bump isolation: some kind of controlled/repeatable bump, measure whether it skips and how it affects response
Noise/rumble: play a quiet section from an ideal test record, measure noise & spectrum
Level & adjustability: how level is the platter and is it adjustable?
Anti-skating bias consistency: how much does the anti-skating force change as the arm moves from outer to inner groove
Arm tracking angle: how much does the cartridge mount point vary from perfect tangent as it moves from outer to inner groove
Effective resonant frequency: of the entire arm assembly, assuming a typical needle+cartridge mass
The last few are more about the arm than the turntable, but those usually go together.

 

[watchnerd]

Anti-skating bias consistency: how much does the anti-skating force change as the arm moves from outer to inner groove

Skating force is adjustable and inner grooves vary in diameter, so you'd have two variable depending upon the record and cartridge's VTF.

And how would you measure this?

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Anti-skating bias consistency: how much does the anti-skating force change as the arm moves from outer to inner groove
Arm tracking angle: how much does the cartridge mount point vary from perfect tangent as it moves from outer to inner groove
Effective resonant frequency: of the entire arm assembly, assuming a typical needle+cartridge mass
The last few are more about the arm than the turntable, but those usually go together.

I agree - this was my original point that turntables are platforms on which arms are mounted and the turntable's job is to rotate accurately and minimise perturbations to the stylus tip (post #18)

Once you get into arms, you open up a different realm of dynamic mechanical systems. You also start getting a wide range of permutations (S vs straight; long vs short, pivot vs linear etc.)

I guess we have to ask the OP whether they meant turntable (as stated) or turntable+arm.

 

[JiiPee]

In the end, one is measuring a particular combination of turntable + tonearm + cartridge + adjustments (+ in some cases maybe even the platform the turntable stands on), so strictly speaking, the measurements are actually valid only for that singular case.

 

[thewas]

Skating force is adjustable and inner grooves vary in diameter, so you'd have two variable depending upon the record and cartridge's VTF.

And how would you measure this?

Also depends on the recorded signal amplitude, guess the only theoretically "perfect" choice is a tangential arm which doesn't have that force.

 

[dualazmak]

In the end, one is measuring a particular combination of turntable + tonearm + cartridge + adjustments (+ in some cases maybe even the platform the turntable stands on), .....

Sometimes,,, + phono preamplifier !
For example, just like my experience of "an issue" of rather affordable phono preamplifier and "fix/treatment thereof" (ref. here #697 on my project thread.