Why no turntables?

[Robin L]

Also, after shipping, it would take a while to get it adjusted to where it was before being shipped. I don't see the point in wasting time on turntable measurements.

This is one reason why I think Technics direct drive 'tables would offer more meaningful measurements---unlike suspended subchassis turntables, these would take virtually no time at all to "settle in".

 

[Brian Hall]

This is one reason why I think Technics direct drive 'tables would offer more meaningful measurements---unlike suspended subchassis turntables, these would take virtually no time at all to "settle in".

It either achieves and maintains the correct RPM or not.

 

[DVDdoug]

I'm curiously waiting to see if Amir has anything to say...

As someone mentioned, he has reviewed phono preamps but unlike everything else he tests he doesn't seem to LISTEN to them.

There's also that big thread about cartridge measurement so there is a lot of interest in vinyl around here, but I didn't see any cartridge reviews by Amir.

I haven't played records in decades. I only occasionally digitize one. So I'm just curios if it's because he doesn't have the equipment, or if there are too many interacting variables, or something else.

 

[watchnerd]

There is maybe also a question of bandwidth and impact. Most people who are buying turntables today are interested in the experience of playing vinyl but not fidelity per se*. Testing would (in today's market) only help the very small slice of people who demand real high fidelity from a turntable

At every TT price point; I think people are interested in knowing what the performance is like.

If one starts with an entry level Project, what is gained by moving up to a >3x Technics DD table

 

[watchnerd]

Cartridges would be pretty straightforward, as is wow and flutter
True rumble measurements, however, take some pretty arcane (but inexpensive) gadgets that attatch to the spindle of a turntable. The big expense is a reference grade turntable, my SL1000R for example is 20k.That type of turntable is pretty much a requirement. You could use a much less expensive SL1200G (4k) but that might not be quite quiet enough for n'th degree testing of cartridges.
The other less than common item for turntabe setup is a fozzgometer for establishing azimuth but the fact is that Amir's ample testing equipment would make such a device look basicly like a toy!

Everything the Fozzgometer does can be done with an o scope and a test record.

But now we’re getting into azimuth setup which is a different lane than basic TT performance with lots of user skill/error

 

[Chrispy]

At every TT price point; I think people are interested in knowing what the performance is like.

If one starts with an entry level Project, what is gained by moving up to a >3x Technics DD table

Some people perhaps, but how many? Or do you think it would just be more interesting than typical digital gear?

 

[watchnerd]

Amir does publish reviews of phono stages from time to time... I assume he would need a whole new kit to test cartridges or turntables properly? Or would it still just run into the AP analyzer?

There is maybe also a question of bandwidth and impact. Most people who are buying turntables today are interested in the experience of playing vinyl but not fidelity per se*. Testing would (in today's market) only help the very small slice of people who demand real high fidelity from a turntable setup.

Meanwhile, there are a lot of people buying IEMs, DACs, headphones and speakers who ARE interested in fidelity, but are being badly misled when they fail to look for, or can't find independent testing. Amir only has so many opportunities to measure something, and it may be that he chooses to allocate those tests to products in larger segments of the market.

You can test TT speed and w&f with a test record or two and REW.

 

[JiiPee]

Technics makes good turntables, but in my opinion, they are not the kind of be all end all vastly superior things some people seem to hold them.

Direct drive is indispensable to DJs, but for normal home usage, belt drive is perfectly fine. A belt drive requires a bit more maintenance, and it takes couple of seconds to reach the correct speed, but if ease of operation is paramount, then one should stay with the digital media anyway.

A quartz controlled direct drive can achieve very good speed accuracy, but the direct connection between the motor and the platter does not provide the kind of isolation from vibration and noise, as the belt. Technics has solved this drawback better than most, but there are still belt driven turntables that offer lower noise, hum and rumble through the groove, while still maintaining speed accuracy that is easily good enough,

 

[watchnerd]

Some people perhaps, but how many? Or do you think it would just be more interesting than typical digital gear?

It’s a lot more interesting because it’s all flawed.

You can get an audibly transparent DAC for <$300.

You can pay $5000 for a TT and it may be better than one for $1k; either barely or a lot; or it might be worse

 

[watchnerd]

One of the challenges of measuring a turntable on its own is determining its contribution to the output.

We know that (assuming the turntable is not significantly flawed, the tonearm is well designed and matches the cartridge compliance) almost all the boundaries of what is achievable are constrained by cartridge performance and mastering of the disk.

In a sense a turntable's job is not to mess up - by rumbling, wobbling or transferring motor or environmental noise to the tip of the needle.

You can get into substantive differences with things like linear tracking TTs

 

[watchnerd]

Just a pain in so many ways, let alone the logistics or long term stuff....I'd be more interested in how a classic tt like my 1200mk2 measured then and now but that would also be somewhat questionable (how would you even do same test rig over so long a time?)

You can measure it yourself

 

[watchnerd]

I guess I can see some value in measuring cheaper turntables, although aren't a lot of the direct drive ones similar as they're from the same OEM?

If one is spending a bit more money on a turntable, is there really any point in buying anything other than a Technics?

Sure.

I bought my Michell Gyro SE because it looks more interesting than a Technics and the speed / w & f differences are below the audibility threshold anyway.

It’s also easier to swap arms or add a 2nd arm.

 

[WisEd]

Everything the Fozzgometer does can be done with an o scope and a test record.

But now we’re getting into azimuth setup which is a different lane than basic TT performance with lots of user skill/error

You are entirely correct. I did mine with a cheap oscilloscope.. However if your going to test cartridgesn proper setup is crucial for testing. Note that not all headshells are amenable to adjustment. Nor is totally necessary for all stylus geometries!

 

[Robin L]

You can get into substantive differences with things like linear tracking TTs

One would think. But my experience is that a linear tracking arm doesn't really clean up IGD. I had a couple. In addition to being disappointing in performance, the mechanism that allowed the arm to move towards the spindle fell apart on both turntables. They might have been repairable, but I moved on to other turntables with pivoted arms. One was a pre quartz Technics direct drive with a Shure M-44-7 cartridge. That managed to play more troublesome discs than other turntables I've owned.

 

[WisEd]

You can measure it yourself

I don't really have the tools nor the skill. I'm sure 99% of people who buy turntables abd crtriges are in the same boat. I do have a basic oscilloscope that I barely know how to operate! I do have The test disc from Ortofon, Tacet and analog productions which theoretically have all the frequncy sweeps etc that are necessary. Given my lack of tecnical know-how ivm've been limited the "by ear" portions.

 

[xanalog]

I am so glad that this thread has not reduced into bashing those who are passionate about the LP scene.
@Balle Clorin had posted this image (and a few others) at another ASR thread (hope it is not OT):

 

[Chrispy]

You can measure it yourself

Measure what? Something that didn't even occur to me back in 85?

 

[JeffS7444]

One would think. But my experience is that a linear tracking arm doesn't really clean up IGD.

IME, it seems to be less a problem of tracing error, and more a matter of the linear velocity being lowest towards the center of the record: It seems to me that 12" 45s and 78s can sound pretty good throughout.

 

[Chrispy]

IME, it seems to be less a problem of tracing error, and more a matter of the linear velocity being lowest towards the center of the record: It seems to me that 12" 45s and 78s can sound pretty good throughout.

I think this somewhat encapsulates the arguments for the difficulties in measuring this sort of gear.

 

[WisEd]

Well I bit the bullet and tried an app! This is the "findings" from my SL1000R. Note the offset. I think it's wise to take the 20k turntable's direct RPM measurement of RPM over a free app's on a phone
Looks pretty good to me