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Well, speed accuracy is measurable and controllable - albeit at a price.
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Why no turntables?
- Thread starter WisEd
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- Thread Starter
- #22
You are absolutely correct! The turntables job is to have no sound! Achieving that, however , in a micromechanical system is a very hard and expensive task. So digitalistas can understand. You can buy a multifunction voltmeter for ten bucks. However if you wsnt a fancy precision oscilloscope its 20 thousand! A nother superb example is the 10's of millions that are necessary to make a very quiet submarine!
- Thread Starter
- #23
Bravo! So is abscence of noise while operating!
Why it's not worth it.
HalSF
Active Member
I don’t *prefer* the sound quality of vinyl playback on turntables or make inaccurate claims about its magical superiority and absence of noise and other limitations. I *enjoy* it for many reasons — and it absolutely does “approach” the fidelity of digital. These “forget about fidelity if you listen to vinyl” posts make it seem like if you walk into a room where a well-pressed, well-mastered LP is playing on good gear, you won’t hear beautiful music but will instead be overwhelmed by noise, distortion, and crippled sound quality. That’s nuts.I have the opposite viewTurntables have no hope of approaching the fidelity of digital, so they shouldn't even try. Vinyl enthusiasts say they prefer TT's because of the sound. So I say - if that's their approach, they should just forget about fidelity. Celebrate the distortion. Forget expensive turntables, they should find one that they like.
Love the advantages and superb performance of digital — I do too! — but don’t be a subjective tribal cultist about it.
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Actually, in the context of the original question 
it is interesting to note that @amirm has indeed reviewed several analog (tape) sources.
from the sublime...
www.audiosciencereview.com
www.audiosciencereview.com
to...
www.audiosciencereview.com
it is interesting to note that @amirm has indeed reviewed several analog (tape) sources.from the sublime...
Measurements of Nakamichi Dragon Cassette Deck
This is a detail measurements of the iconic, Nakamichi Dragon Vintage cassette deck. It was kindly brought to me at a meet at our local audio store (Gig Harbor audio). For those of you too young to know :), the Nakamichi Dragon has the reputation of being the best cassette deck available at...
www.audiosciencereview.com
Otari MX-5050 Review (Reel to Reel Tape Deck)
Needed a change of pace so decided to go after a project I planned almost five years ago, namely measuring my Otari MX-5050 BIII-2 Reel to Reel take deck! Otari was the last company in the world making Reel to Reel tape recorders and sadly, ceased production a few years ago. I got my sample...
www.audiosciencereview.com
to...
Sony Tapecorder 101 Review (Vintage Reel to Reel)
This is a review and detailed measurements of the Sony Tapecorder Model 101 vintage Reel to Reel tape recorder. My brother found it for me at a Goodwill store. The 101 was released in 1959 and retailed for 29,800 Japanese Yen (today's conversion and adjusted for inflation: $2,377). I must stay...
www.audiosciencereview.com
EERecordist
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Agree. Expensive turntables are like expensive cars, watches, yachts, there is no upper limit.I have the opposite view
ProJect which started out with a basic belt drive system just released a high end turntable - Signature 12.2 Flagship for $14,999.
I think people enjoy the antique physicality of the machine and the playing experience. Many young people like it and associate it with their formative years when DJing was on vinyl.
A perfectly good recording was engineered in the master tape. For some genres with electric guitar, bass, and kit drums, there will be some compression and limiting in the master tape, in addition to the inherent compression of tape depending on how hard it was driven and the tape noise reduction available.
Then the recordings went to the disk mastering engineer, who rolled off the bass to avoid wide grooves, the treble to avoid burning up the cutter head, and compressed it. When radio was king, it was further compressed for broadcast.
It is reasonable to subjectively like the result of the art of vinyl mastering. It is the artistic vision of the mastering engineer, which is different than the artistic vision of the mixing engineer who was usually supervised by the producer and the artist.
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EERecordist
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I believe some ASR contributors have measured wow and flutter.
www.audiosciencereview.com
There may be smartphone apps using the accelerometer in the phone. There is also the very expensive Audio Magik test record. It's over $1000 with software.
I would like to see a phono cartridge direct needle actuator, like a cutting head, for directly measuring the cartridge, and maybe the negligible contribution of the arm. I would guess cartridge maker labs would have something like that. Newly made cutter heads are about $2500, and there is a person in Australia who built their own lathe and cutter head.
An able ASR participant @Jakob1863 found this: https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?posts/51209/
Wow and Flutter measurements like you've never seen before! Maybe...
Introduction I’ve had a Vernier force sensor for educational use for a couple of years, acceleration and gyroscope. I didn’t have time to play with it until a couple of weeks ago, it connects via Bluetooth and can collect up to 1000 samples per second, here, acquiring the data, 5 minutes of data...
www.audiosciencereview.com
There may be smartphone apps using the accelerometer in the phone. There is also the very expensive Audio Magik test record. It's over $1000 with software.
I would like to see a phono cartridge direct needle actuator, like a cutting head, for directly measuring the cartridge, and maybe the negligible contribution of the arm. I would guess cartridge maker labs would have something like that. Newly made cutter heads are about $2500, and there is a person in Australia who built their own lathe and cutter head.
An able ASR participant @Jakob1863 found this: https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?posts/51209/
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Robin L
Master Contributor
I've owned a lot of turntables. 50 years of collecting and playing records, more concerned with the discs than the quality of the turntables would do that. I was convinced, early on, that the AR XA turntable would be all that I really needed. But those 'legendary' turntables could easily go out of alignment, thanks to the low budget suspended subchassis design. Empire turntables seemed solid, Philips didn't, cheap Sansui and Pioneer 'tables had obvious problems. I had a properly set-up Linn Sondek LP 12 for a little while, it performed well. However, I had the best and most consistent results with Technics direct drive 'tables. They were also the easiest to set up. KPFA, a radio station in Berkeley California, had a Technics SP 10 with a SME II arm and a Stanton cartridge. That was the most stable and consistent turntable I have experienced.
I think it would be good for Amir to test one of Technics turntables---it would be more likely that he would get repeatable results with these turntables and would get a proper "bottom line" on what is possible with a turntable. But I also suspect the results would be discouraging anyway, what with the inconsistency of the test discs and the generally low level of performance one can achieve with LPs.
What's interesting to me is finding out the limits of what people would consider "good sound". We already know that, compared to a digital file played back on cheap but high performing gear, the deficiencies of LP playback are pretty high and probably audible. The question is "how audible"? In a way, this would test the limits of the format.
I think it would be good for Amir to test one of Technics turntables---it would be more likely that he would get repeatable results with these turntables and would get a proper "bottom line" on what is possible with a turntable. But I also suspect the results would be discouraging anyway, what with the inconsistency of the test discs and the generally low level of performance one can achieve with LPs.
What's interesting to me is finding out the limits of what people would consider "good sound". We already know that, compared to a digital file played back on cheap but high performing gear, the deficiencies of LP playback are pretty high and probably audible. The question is "how audible"? In a way, this would test the limits of the format.
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Hear, hear!
Robin L
Master Contributor
FWIW, Hi-Fi News and Record Report still reviews and measures turntables:
www.hifinews.com
www.hifinews.com
Note that the crazy expensive "Transrotor’s Massimo Nero TMD achieves stable speed within six seconds", while the pricey but far less expensive Technics takes only a second. Not to mention that it's clearly superior as regards wow and flutter/rumble.
Edit: the Transrotor Massimo Nero TMD actually is approximately 1/3 the price of Technics' TOTL deck.
Technics SL-1000R turntable/arm Lab Report
Two years ago Technics' SL-1200GAE turntable set the standard for rumble and speed accuracy – benchmarks that are inched forward again by this flagship 'Reference Class' SL-1000R. Speed accuracy is, quite frankly, beyond the limits of accuracy using any test record because there are finite speed...
www.hifinews.com
Transrotor Massimo Nero turntable Lab Report
Driven via a single ‘Konstant Eins’ AC motor pod, Transrotor’s Massimo Nero TMD achieves stable speed within six seconds. As supplied, our sample was running +1.6% fast but with (very) careful adjustment of the controller’s hidden screwhead – see instructions! – it was possible to pull the...
www.hifinews.com
Note that the crazy expensive "Transrotor’s Massimo Nero TMD achieves stable speed within six seconds", while the pricey but far less expensive Technics takes only a second. Not to mention that it's clearly superior as regards wow and flutter/rumble.
Edit: the Transrotor Massimo Nero TMD actually is approximately 1/3 the price of Technics' TOTL deck.
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I love the sound of analog. I like big fat 8Track reel to reel. I am restarting my vinyl collection though.
I bought a 2000 pennies Technics bungee drive spinner with a basic cartridge and needle. It definitely works better than the one I used to have in 1980. Test it sure. Wouldn't hurt, but wouldn't change my mind either.
When I am jamming or listening to someone jamming, it's in analog, it's live right then and there. Even if it's being recorded and mixed in digital, that original sound is analog. The wind is analog, the rain is analog. I mean the guy in the orchestra is playing in analog. There is something to the room for sure. It is still analog and real at its origination. From there the choice in how you dine your audio is yours.
I can appreciate the engineering, modifications and precision in today's digital. It has a place with me.. Movies for example. I want to capture what the sound engineer is laying down. There are some songs that are just crispy on top of a room with out air. Real good. There is some that is not. It's plastic, and lifeless lacking of analog emotion.
For the music I enjoy, it's analog. And what's sounding like a warm bowl of soup to me is a good vinyl record.
And of course an analog amp with BIG VU's.
I bought a 2000 pennies Technics bungee drive spinner with a basic cartridge and needle. It definitely works better than the one I used to have in 1980. Test it sure. Wouldn't hurt, but wouldn't change my mind either.
When I am jamming or listening to someone jamming, it's in analog, it's live right then and there. Even if it's being recorded and mixed in digital, that original sound is analog. The wind is analog, the rain is analog. I mean the guy in the orchestra is playing in analog. There is something to the room for sure. It is still analog and real at its origination. From there the choice in how you dine your audio is yours.
I can appreciate the engineering, modifications and precision in today's digital. It has a place with me.. Movies for example. I want to capture what the sound engineer is laying down. There are some songs that are just crispy on top of a room with out air. Real good. There is some that is not. It's plastic, and lifeless lacking of analog emotion.
For the music I enjoy, it's analog. And what's sounding like a warm bowl of soup to me is a good vinyl record.
And of course an analog amp with BIG VU's.
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The Massimo Nero TMD is about 6600.00 US Dollars, the Technics SL1000R is about 27.000 US Dollars. Just saying...FWIW, Hi-Fi News and Record Report still reviews and measures turntables:
Technics SL-1000R turntable/arm Lab Report
Two years ago Technics' SL-1200GAE turntable set the standard for rumble and speed accuracy – benchmarks that are inched forward again by this flagship 'Reference Class' SL-1000R. Speed accuracy is, quite frankly, beyond the limits of accuracy using any test record because there are finite speed...
Transrotor Massimo Nero turntable Lab Report
Driven via a single ‘Konstant Eins’ AC motor pod, Transrotor’s Massimo Nero TMD achieves stable speed within six seconds. As supplied, our sample was running +1.6% fast but with (very) careful adjustment of the controller’s hidden screwhead – see instructions! – it was possible to pull the...
Note that the crazy expensive "Transrotor’s Massimo Nero TMD achieves stable speed within six seconds", while the pricey but far less expensive Technics takes only a second. Not to mention that it's clearly superior as regards wow and flutter/rumble.
TRANSROTOR MASSIMO NERO TMD TURNTABLE
Massimo Nero comes in a POM and solid steel chassis, 80mm POM platter, TMD (Transrotor Magnetic Drive) bearing and option to equip up to four 9-inch or 12-inch tonearm base. The arm board can be ordered to accommodate your choice of tone arm mounting specification. Standard package includes the...
vinylsound.com
Robin L
Master Contributor
Misread the article, you're right. Hi-Fi News also cited the "Metropolis FMD, which will set you back a not inconsiderable £180,000". My bad.The Massimo Nero TMD is about 6600.00 US Dollars, the Technics SL1000R is about 27.000 US Dollars. Just saying...
TRANSROTOR MASSIMO NERO TMD TURNTABLE
Massimo Nero comes in a POM and solid steel chassis, 80mm POM platter, TMD (Transrotor Magnetic Drive) bearing and option to equip up to four 9-inch or 12-inch tonearm base. The arm board can be ordered to accommodate your choice of tone arm mounting specification. Standard package includes the...
Read the same article, still amazed at the Micro Seiki, cough, Massimo Nero price. Owned the later pictured Transrotor Connoisseur for a number of years.
beeface
Senior Member
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I guess I can see some value in measuring cheaper turntables, although aren't a lot of the direct drive ones similar as they're from the same OEM?
If one is spending a bit more money on a turntable, is there really any point in buying anything other than a Technics?
If one is spending a bit more money on a turntable, is there really any point in buying anything other than a Technics?
The only measurements that matter for any turntable are:
1. Does it maintain a correct and consistent speed?
2. Does it keep vibrations / rumbling from the motor (or room) from passing into the tonearm / cartridge?
Any other measurements would be about:
3. Does the tonearm track correctly?
4. Does the cartridge succeed in sending a decent representation of the grooves in a record to the phono preamp?
Inexpensive turntables (< $1,000) with their included tonearms are capable of 1 thru 3.
Excellent cartridges (MM, not the silly and pointless MC) are available for $500 or less.
No matter what you spend, it will never be able to measure as well as what a much cheaper CD or streaming setup can accomplish.
Turntables should only need 3 ratings:
1. Terrible
2. Not too bad
3. As good as can be expected
1. Does it maintain a correct and consistent speed?
2. Does it keep vibrations / rumbling from the motor (or room) from passing into the tonearm / cartridge?
Any other measurements would be about:
3. Does the tonearm track correctly?
4. Does the cartridge succeed in sending a decent representation of the grooves in a record to the phono preamp?
Inexpensive turntables (< $1,000) with their included tonearms are capable of 1 thru 3.
Excellent cartridges (MM, not the silly and pointless MC) are available for $500 or less.
No matter what you spend, it will never be able to measure as well as what a much cheaper CD or streaming setup can accomplish.
Turntables should only need 3 ratings:
1. Terrible
2. Not too bad
3. As good as can be expected
At this stage of the game I'd rather see reviews concentrate on current tech I still have my tt/vinyl but rarely use it these days. Is the effort/time required to test tt's vs arms vs cartridges really worth it (as well as the vinyl itself)? I don't think so. Nice for nostalgia, but....
I still have my tt/vinyl but rarely use it these days. Is the effort/time required to test tt's vs arms vs cartridges really worth it (as well as the vinyl itself)? I don't think so. Nice for nostalgia, but....
At this stage of the game I'd rather see reviews concentrate on current tech
Also, after shipping, it would take a while to get it adjusted to where it was before being shipped. I don't see the point in wasting time on turntable measurements.
Just a pain in so many ways, let alone the logistics or long term stuff....I'd be more interested in how a classic tt like my 1200mk2 measured then and now but that would also be somewhat questionable (how would you even do same test rig over so long a time?)
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