Why no turntables?

[WisEd]

Given the proliferation of turntables and phono cartridges. The dearth of independent testing is a sad sate of affairs....

 

[mhardy6647]

Well -- the good ones are rather expensive, and the cheap ones are likely best avoided.
I am sure it would be fine with @amirm if the OP, or any of us, for that matter, bought one and had it drop-shipped to him to put through its paces*.
I don't think (e.g.) Topping's doing any 99 dollar direct drive turntables with Technics-like performance**.

________________
* There's actually a fair amount of performance data "from the field" to be found in posts here, albeit not reviews per se -- and I suspect that most of the data collection's done, for better or worse, via cell phone apps.
** If they are -- somebody please let me know!

 

[raif71]

Does @amirm have records to use with the testing of any turntable ? ie records with tones ?

 

[mhardy6647]

Does @amirm have records to use with the testing of any turntable ? ie records with tones ?

That can be arranged.

 

[Travis]

Given the proliferation of turntables and phono cartridges. The dearth of independent testing is a sad sate of affairs....

There is a crowdsourcing thread on here on cartridge measurements (in the meantime).

 

[kemmler3D]

Amir does publish reviews of phono stages from time to time... I assume he would need a whole new kit to test cartridges or turntables properly? Or would it still just run into the AP analyzer?

There is maybe also a question of bandwidth and impact. Most people who are buying turntables today are interested in the experience of playing vinyl but not fidelity per se*. Testing would (in today's market) only help the very small slice of people who demand real high fidelity from a turntable setup.

Meanwhile, there are a lot of people buying IEMs, DACs, headphones and speakers who ARE interested in fidelity, but are being badly misled when they fail to look for, or can't find independent testing. Amir only has so many opportunities to measure something, and it may be that he chooses to allocate those tests to products in larger segments of the market.

 

[WisEd]

Amir does publish reviews of phono stages from time to time... I assume he would need a whole new kit to test cartridges or turntables properly? Or would it still just run into the AP analyzer?

There is maybe also a question of bandwidth and impact. Most people who are buying turntables today are interested in the experience of playing vinyl but not fidelity per se*. Testing would (in today's market) only help the very small slice of people who demand real high fidelity from a turntable setup.

Meanwhile, there are a lot of people buying IEMs, DACs, headphones and speakers who ARE interested in fidelity, but are being badly misled when they fail to look for, or can't find independent testing. Amir only has so many opportunities to measure something, and it may be that he chooses to allocate those tests to products in larger segments of the market.

He actually has my Ortofon SUT at his lab somewhere waiting it's turn on the gridiron. He has never tested a stepup transformer so it will be something new. By ear, I think it's slightly more dynamic and revealing than my McIntosh C53 preamp MC stage, but I have no measurements to back that up! As far as I know, it could all be " expensive doodad effect" It certainly doesn't sound the same nor worse.

 

[WisEd]

Amir does publish reviews of phono stages from time to time... I assume he would need a whole new kit to test cartridges or turntables properly? Or would it still just run into the AP analyzer?

There is maybe also a question of bandwidth and impact. Most people who are buying turntables today are interested in the experience of playing vinyl but not fidelity per se*. Testing would (in today's market) only help the very small slice of people who demand real high fidelity from a turntable setup.

Meanwhile, there are a lot of people buying IEMs, DACs, headphones and speakers who ARE interested in fidelity, but are being badly misled when they fail to look for, or can't find independent testing. Amir only has so many opportunities to measure something, and it may be that he chooses to allocate those tests to products in larger segments of the market.

Cartridges would be pretty straightforward, as is wow and flutter
True rumble measurements, however, take some pretty arcane (but inexpensive) gadgets that attatch to the spindle of a turntable. The big expense is a reference grade turntable, my SL1000R for example is 20k.That type of turntable is pretty much a requirement. You could use a much less expensive SL1200G (4k) but that might not be quite quiet enough for n'th degree testing of cartridges.
The other less than common item for turntabe setup is a fozzgometer for establishing azimuth but the fact is that Amir's ample testing equipment would make such a device look basicly like a toy!

 

[WisEd]

There is a crowdsourcing thread on here on cartridge measurements (in the meantime).

Any links?

 

[WisEd]

Amir does publish reviews of phono stages from time to time... I assume he would need a whole new kit to test cartridges or turntables properly? Or would it still just run into the AP analyzer?

There is maybe also a question of bandwidth and impact. Most people who are buying turntables today are interested in the experience of playing vinyl but not fidelity per se*. Testing would (in today's market) only help the very small slice of people who demand real high fidelity from a turntable setup.

Meanwhile, there are a lot of people buying IEMs, DACs, headphones and speakers who ARE interested in fidelity, but are being badly misled when they fail to look for, or can't find independent testing. Amir only has so many opportunities to measure something, and it may be that he chooses to allocate those tests to products in larger segments of the market.

You would be surprised about the sales of turntables! Technics brought out a 1k table to market (their least expensive model and it sold out the entire initial production before it hit the dealers! It has sold out every SL 1200G ( at 4k) sunce it was introduced in 2016 (10xs of thousands) Even the Sl1000R (20k) has a waiting list!
They have been so successful at selling premium turntables that virtually every other manufacturer is pumping out multi thiusand dollars models of their own. Ortofon can't keep up. with demand either! The vinyl revival is far from a fleeting fad! Digital sound fantastic and is convinient, Yet it can,t match the ritualistic aspect of playing a record. More surprising for those that don,t know the format well is that it's best, vinyl can sound as good and very often more pleasant (they are distinct) as the digital file.

 

[mcdn]

I suppose there’d be some merit in comparative testing, but at an absolute level the performance is so bad it’s worse than even the cheapest digital rubbish ever reviewed here. Awful pitch stability, laughable frequency response, all kinds of noise, maybe 12 bits of dynamic range at best?

Fun as a physical format to handle, but “slightly less terrible than most” is the best review any TT or cart could hope for at any price.

 

[kemmler3D]

You would be surprised about the sales of turntables! Technics brought out a 1k table to market (their least expensive model and it sold out the entire initial production before it hit the dealers! It has sold out every SL 1200G ( at 4k) sunce it was introduced in 2016 (10xs of thousands) Even the Sl1000R (20k) has a waiting list!

I really might be surprised by the size of that market, but the annual market for headphones and speakers is measured in the millions of units, so I am not sure it would change the calculus of impact. Again, just assuming Amir might look at it that way, but I don't know.

 

[dougi]

Any links?

phono cartridge measurement library

 

[WisEd]

I really might be surprised by the size of that market, but the annual market for headphones and speakers is measured in the millions of units, so I am not sure it would change the calculus of impact. Again, just assuming Amir might look at it that way, but I don't know.

Mmmmm, no. Technically maybe. But if you compare actual musical files it might amaze how close and a few occasions vynil is ctially better than the distributed digital file! I'm well aware that all modern Vinyl releases come fro Digital masters, however, you basicly never find a digital file that is a 100% bit to bit version. Some limited reases on vinyl are exactly that (as much as the vinyl can physicallu capture. how many musical recordings actully have have a dynamic range of more than 80dB? Or 60 for that matter! Vinyl can easily cover more than the frequncy range of human hearing as well! My Tacet test disc which has frquencies starting a 8Hz can clearly show the resonance of my tonearm at 9hz and thiroughly separate it from the next tone at ten! My frequncy analyzer can also show high frequency extension above 30khz too! So, yes the capabilities on paper of digital are obviouly superior in some areas, but in practice most of taht capability is seldom if ever really relevant!

 

[dualazmak]

I recently revived my gem/treasure TT DENON DP-57L + DENON DL-301MkII MC in my DSP-based multichannel multi-SP-driver multi-amplifier fully active stereo audio setup; please refer to here and here.

Nowadays, however, I seldom perform/enjoy the "vinyl ceremony"; only once in a month or two.
What were/are my personal motivations for "vinyl ceremony"? I posted here as follows under the below spoiler cover.

Spoiler: personal motivations for revival of "vinyl ceremony" gears in my PC-DSP based multichannel active setup

What were/are my motivations?

1. Nostalgic aestheticity of TT (ref. photos here and here).
2. Naive nostalgia for "the ceremony" of vinyl listening.
3. My audio-DIY-ish interests in "implementation of real-time on-the-fly listening to vinyl" in DSP-based multi-channel multi-SP-driver multi-amplifier fully active audio setup which has safe and flexible on-the-fly relative gain (tone) control functionality.
4. My naive interest and curiosity for comparative listening to vinyl vs. its CD release in my audio setup (ref. here, here and here), only for a few (less than ten) vinyl discs; especially recently released well QC-ed thick heavy (188 gram!) 45 RPM vinyl of jazz piano trio music vs. its CD release (ref. here).

Since I have already accomplished (almost) all of the above 1. through 4., I assume I will seldom listen to vinyl (maybe once in two months, or less) even though the TT should remain in my multichannel audio rig because of 1. and 2.

And, you would please note that I have already "digitized" all of my around 300 old LPs into 192 kHz (or 96 kHz, 44.1 kHz) AIFF format and have taken the digitized LP tracks into my digital music library (ref. here and here).

BTW, some of my audio/music enthu friends, including "the" jazz fanatic gentleman (ref. here and here), may bring his/her favorite vinyl records to my listening room for our vinyl ceremony and listening enjoyment using my latest DSP-based multichannel audio setup (ref. here) having TT in it.

I essentially agree with @Sal1950's stance and points on this topic shared on the remote thread.

Edit: as I wrote here on the remote thread,,,
The already digitized vinyl LPs are not yet discarded! __They are still sitting on my shelves upstairs in perfect conditions.
Only if needed, of course I can bring any of them onto my revived TT.

Also, I fully agree with @DVDdoug's comment in his post here. He wrote; The constant low-level background noise didn't really bother me but the "snap", "crackle", and 'pop" DID annoy me more than it seemed to bother other people. And my records seemed to "develop" defects even though tried to take care of them.
Yes, I responded to him in my post here on that thread.

 

[OldHvyMec]

I've seen guys tinker for years getting a turntable right. I'd never send in a complete TT to anyone for any kind of testing. Usually, the best of the best are set up and settle for a few weeks to a few months where they are going to be, and then they really fine-tune everything. Maybe an armboard with a tonearm and cart, but shipping them around for the most part is avoided like the plague. Some setups are hand-delivered right up to the point of dropping the needle for the first concert session.

TT guys/girls can be a really weird bunch for the most part. 20-100 hours for break-in, cables, plinth settling, chassis settling, usually, true diehards don't get too serious for a hundred + hours or so.

I'm not that picky, but I don't give anything a good listen, just minor adjustments until I hit at least 10-20 records played all the way through. Testing the cart and cable is a factory thing, I could give a crap about that. I can't do anything about it anyway if they made a goof. I've never had one but a few buddies sure did when re-tipping. I have been with Soundsmith for years for re-tips, used purchases, and new. I've never had an issue that a phone call didn't resolve in a few minutes. It was always me being to quick to cry wolf.

Regards.

 

[JiiPee]

It takes some special test records and methods to test the performance of turntable/tonearm/cartridge combinations properly. Also, it takes careful adjustment of the setup to achieve optimum results. All this is not super expensive, or difficult per se, but it takes some time and effort.

We already have a long thread "Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?" to discuss about the charms of turntables generally.

Regarding sound quality, a good turntable/tonearm/cartridge combination properly adjusted can achieve the limits set by the vinyl record format, and when playing a good vinyl pressing, it can provide a sound quality that is to me good enough to be perfectly enjoyable, while the measured performance is still clearly inferior compared to what is easily achieved with digital formats. I also appreciate interaction with well executed fine mechanical things, and like to listen some recordings not necessarily available in digital format. There is undeniably also a nostalgic element in reliving the memories of youth.

Those corresponding to subjectivist-camp caricatures of ASR-members as froth at the mouth fundamentalist SINAD-crusaders, and single-minded measured performance per dollar hunters, naturally disparage turntables as horrible abominations.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

One of the challenges of measuring a turntable on its own is determining its contribution to the output.

We know that (assuming the turntable is not significantly flawed, the tonearm is well designed and matches the cartridge compliance) almost all the boundaries of what is achievable are constrained by cartridge performance and mastering of the disk.

In a sense a turntable's job is not to mess up - by rumbling, wobbling or transferring motor or environmental noise to the tip of the needle.

 

[Snarfie]

An yet another overlooked critical aspect in audio discussions is room acoustics. In nearly every debate around analog versus digital formats, the influence of the listening environment is ignored. However, it plays a vital role in sound reproduction—regardless of the playback device. Whether the source is a turntable, CD player, DAC, or network streamer, the final sound that reaches the listener is profoundly shaped by the room’s acoustic properties.

Reflections, resonances, and standing waves can all alter the frequency response, timing, and clarity of audio. Without attention to room acoustics or correction—through DSP or acoustic treatment—even the most technically or mechanical advanced equipment ( like a turntable cartridge) cannot deliver the full potential of the recording. For true fidelity, the room must be considered as much a part of the audio chain as any amplifier or speaker turntables cartridges before testing imo.

 

[Keith_W]

Well -- the good ones are rather expensive, and the cheap ones are likely best avoided.

I have the opposite view Turntables have no hope of approaching the fidelity of digital, so they shouldn't even try. Vinyl enthusiasts say they prefer TT's because of the sound. So I say - if that's their approach, they should just forget about fidelity. Celebrate the distortion. Forget expensive turntables, they should find one that they like.