Why most users here HATE all very expensive speakers?

[TimF]

At an uncertain point the object is no longer an audio speaker but an object of bling that incidentally projects sound. It is an oddball, queer thing that is meant as an altar piece. Some people live in that world or rarified specialness. They have rooms dedicated to queer objects of veneration. There are dedicated vocabularies for veneration and rites to be observed. I suppose one of the queerest of the queer worlds such as these is the Concours d'Elegance at Pebble Beach. But then the annual Met Gala comes to mind where people make themselves into freak things. This kind of pretense is meant to be outrageous. I look at it this way, the value of a work of art is not about any intrinsic quality of the work, but in who owns it. If Paul Mellon owns it, it retains value. It gets sick this obsession. It gets to the point that if I can afford it, I don't want it. It can only be handled with cotton gloves. Clean cotton gloves.

 

[Talisman]

Dynamic is not only about capable of high SPL peak, it is also about getting low distortion at low SPL (under 80dB). That is the Achilles's heel of many PA's speaker drivers and its equivalent PA speakers. Many high acclaimed PA speaker drivers have low distortion at high volume but the distortion level is not declined monotonely when feeding lower volume. Not too mention that due to the very high level SPL (120dB capable), most if not all of PA woofers have small holes in the magnet to allow air cooling, but this holes also create vented noise on mid or high level. For PA purpose in the big concert, it is not a problem but in domestic use, it is recognizable.

Do we have measurements here too, or just anecdotal thoughts?
Because, to be honest, these seem like the usual theoretical excuses unsupported by data.
"Thinking that" or "believing" doesn't make the assumptions true, which is why in ASR the practice is to measure, to dismantle audiophile dogmas based on nothing.

 

[Sal1950]

My litmus test for "standard audiophile music taste" is this search.

Humm beware, if you want to listen to a Dire Straits album use the Brothers In Arms studio album.

The 2022 Money for Nothing hits compilation has some of the worst case of Loudness War butchering you can find for DS music with a squashed DR08

The 1985 Warner Bros CD of Brothers was the little silver disc that showed the world what a Grand Slam the new digital format was at a average DR16. Many other great mixes have also been since released. The 2022 Atmos BluRay continues to offer gold std dynamics at DR15.

foobar2000 1.6.12 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1
log date: 2022-09-05 01:55:33
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Analyzed: Dire Straits / Brothers In Arms
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR Peak RMS Duration Track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR20 0.00 dB -21.95 dB 5:13 01-So Far Away
DR19 0.00 dB -21.38 dB 8:26 02-Money For Nothing
DR13 -5.95 dB -21.49 dB 4:12 03-Walk Of Life
DR14 -7.78 dB -24.88 dB 6:34 04-Your Latest Trick
DR13 -12.70 dB -28.90 dB 8:31 05-Why Worry
DR17 -2.43 dB -23.32 dB 6:58 06-Ride Across The River
DR14 -2.18 dB -21.78 dB 4:40 07-The Man's Too Strong
DR18 0.00 dB -20.38 dB 3:41 08-One World
DR15 -4.00 dB -23.49 dB 6:56 09-Brothers In Arms
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of tracks: 9
Official DR value: DR16

Samplerate: 44100 Hz
Channels: 2
Bits per sample: 16
Bitrate: 598 kbps
Codec: FLAC
================================================================================

 

[RexrothPigeon]

Humm beware, if you want to listen to a Dire Straits album use the Brothers In Arms studio album.

I do not want to listen to a Dire Straits album (ever), but thanks.

 

[MattHooper]

(bolding mine)

I don't understand what live acoustic concerts have to do with "different approaches" to audio reproduction. I've been to well over 500 classical music performances in my life. I have professional musicians at my house on a regular basis and have several friends and acquaintances who are members of "Big Five" orchestras. I have more in musical instruments than I do in stereos or cars. (Had a Steinway technician here at the house yesterday!) I've heard almost every major orchestra in the world play in its own concert hall. None of that has anything to do with understanding sound reproduction! It's a non sequitur.

Tell that to the many pioneers of early sound reproduction

The original goal of sound reproduction was “ high fidelity” to the sound of real voices and instruments, from solo to full orchestral.
That was the whole point of “sound reproduction”: reproduce the sound of the voice or instrument in front of the microphone at the speaker end.

And that’s why so much of the early advertisement for high fidelity equipment and speakers emphasized the life like quality and “ bring the Orchestra into your very own living room!”

We can of course quibble at the success of such goals, but live sound including the sound of life Orchestras were the reference for sound reproduction for many.

And some people still appeal to the sound of live acoustic sources like voices and acoustic instruments as a reference point for what they want out of their system (as do numerous speaker designers). Even if it’s a north star that nobody can ever truly reach some still use it as a guide for the type of characteristics they are oriented towards.

So for instance, someone may pay attention to the sound of live Orchestras or acoustic instruments in real acoustics, and noting those characteristics they might design their speakers or select their speakers and their room set up in ways that more closely mimic the sensation. Some people feel for instance, that dipoles in their room more closely gives the impression of the spatial qualities they associate with instruments in real acoustic space.

Dr Toole here in fact has noted how much he enjoyed living with an (essentially) omni design speaker in a large room which helped more closely mimic some of the spatial qualities of an orchestra.

If you’re somebody who is very familiar with the sound of certain instruments, then it makes sense you might be able to notice when certain sound reproduction corrupts the sound of those instruments - whether you’re talking about the recording (think about all the people who attend live orchestras and who identify the artificiality of certain orchestral recordings in terms of improbable instrumental balance), or whether you’re talking about loudspeaker or reproduction system that tends to colour or corrupt in a monotonous fashion in instruments that you are familiar with.

So it might be the case that you personally never use your experience with live sound as a reference. But certainly many have through the history of sound reproduction and many continue to now, in various ways.

 

[Sal1950]

My litmus test for "standard audiophile music taste" is this search.

I do not want to listen to a Dire Straits album (ever), but thanks.

What ???

 

[RexrothPigeon]

What ???

the first quote means "when I think of music that typical audiophiles like, I think of dire straits. here is a link showing how often the band has been mentioned on ASR. this means there is a lot of standard audiophile music taste on ASR"
the second quote means "that music taste is not my music taste"

 

[Sal1950]

So it might be the case that you personally never use your experience with live sound as a reference. But certainly may have through the history of reproducing sound and many continue to now, in various ways.

The biggest problem over that approach/position is that as we all know human memory is a very short term thing, more than about 10 seconds becomes unreliable.
But back in the early times of Hi Fi, much of the days gear was so bad with distortion and unlinear reproduction it was a bit easier to separate the good from the bad using the better recorded sources of the day. Todays world is very different.

 

[Sal1950]

the first quote means "when I think of music that typical audiophiles like, I think of dire straits. here is a link showing how often the band has been mentioned on ASR. this means there is a lot of standard audiophile music taste on ASR"

OK, but your did say "My litmus test for standard audiophile music"

 

[MattHooper]

ABBA? Or worse, Zappa?

Please take your ABBA insults to another thread, sir!

( )

 

[MarkS]

The biggest problem over that approach/position is that as we all know human memory is a very short term thing, more than about 10 seconds becomes unreliable.

Not to the point that we have no idea what various instruments sound like. If that was true, none of us could tell a saxophone from a piano.

 

[Ropeburn]

Please take your ABBA insults to another thread, sir!

( )

Reject Zappa, embrace Zlad!

 

[Jim Taylor]

Has Magico published any measurements?

Not they themselves. However, we have these:

The M2, from Stereophile. https://www.stereophile.com/content/magico-m2-loudspeaker-measurements
The S2, per Stereophile. https://www.stereophile.com/content/magico-s2-loudspeaker-measurements
John Atkinson on the S5. https://audio-excellence.ch/wordpre.../2025/07/250715-Sterophile-Magico-S5-2024.pdf
The S5 Mk 2, from Stereophile. https://www.stereophile.com/content/magico-s5-mkii-loudspeaker-measurements
The A5, from Stereophile. https://www.stereophile.com/content/magico-a5-loudspeaker-measurements
The Q3, from Stereoplay (German). https://magico.net/images/Reviews/Q3/strereoplay_913_Magico_Q3.pdf
The V2, from Soundstage!. https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/speakers/magico_v2/
The A1, from Soundstage!. https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/i...&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153
The S1 Mk 2, from Soundstage!. https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/i...&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153

There seems to be a common set of characteristics through these designs.

 

[Dialectic]

I'm aware of measurements of past models. I want to see measurements of the big ones.

 

[Dan]

This is a common rhetorical move of the audiophile crowd - "you don't think that [six-figure audiophile speakers du jour] are good, so you must be poor and ignorant and have sour grapes."

With respect to me, your "somewhat critical assumption" is wrong.

I've heard lots of expensive speakers and am currently selling my venerable Dutch & Dutch 8Cs, which most users here find to be outrageously expensive.

You are partially correct - I do not regularly visit audio dealers. But, of all people, audio dealers are the people whom I should seek out to learn about sound reproduction? (There are a handful of good audio dealers in the world, and nearly all of them are on ASR!)

With respect to manufacturers, I am not sure what anyone would learn about sound reproduction by visiting audio companies' tiny factories. The factory visits so popular with rags like the Absolute Sound and Soundstage are an exercise in commodity fetishism. ("Oh, look how carefully they twist the copper in the cables!") It has nothing to do with sound reproduction.

I don't understand what live acoustic concerts have to do with "different approaches" to audio reproduction. I've been to well over 500 classical music performances in my life. I have professional musicians at my house on a regular basis and have several friends and acquaintances who are members of "Big Five" orchestras. I have more in musical instruments than I do in stereos or cars. (Had a Steinway technician here at the house yesterday!) I've heard almost every major orchestra in the world play in its own concert hall. None of that has anything to do with understanding sound reproduction! It's a non sequitur.

When I went to the only audio show I've visited, my conversations and listening were repeatedly interrupted by older technical illiterates who thought I was dumb and poor and lusted after garbage that they blew their kids' inheritance to buy. You're one of those guys.

Wow, you’re selling the D&Ds? I think you’re a bacch user, right? Are you getting something more beamy to optimize bacch?

 

[Mr. Swordfish]

Early on in my audio engineer career, I was hired by a band to do their sound and lights. I'm not all that interested in theatrical lighting, so I focused on the sound rather than the lights. The band manager tried to set me straight re what my priorities should be, telling me that "People listen with their eyes, think with their dicks, and fuck with their wallets." , intending to get the point across that I was hired first to be the lighting guy, and sound was a distant second.

My tenure with that band didn't last very long, but I'll always remember that sage advice.

 

[dasherzx]

this has to be a ragebait thread

 

[RexrothPigeon]

OK, but your did say "My litmus test for standard audiophile music"

Yes, Dire Straits is the test I use to indicate the presence of standard audiophile music

 

[wadude]

hate is self-harm. a pair of speakers isn’t worth that.

 

[Mart68]

Yes, Dire Straits is the test I use to indicate the presence of standard audiophile music

Funny, I was listening to their music long before I owned a hi-fi. Talented musicians with strong songs. You don't get that so much any more.

Seen youngsters in the local record shop who weren't even born when their last album was released buying their albums.