Why most users here HATE all very expensive speakers?

[pablolie]

What's expensive to some is trivial to others. It's a very relative term, so IMO not a great foundation for a discussion.

I think it's OK to make fun of poor price-performance. Hate is negative energy and I wouldn't waste it on any audio equipment.

 

[dfuller]

I don't. I dislike speakers that cost a fortune and very clearly will give a worse experience than something considerably cheaper.

As it stands, if you want response linearity and extreme SPL, you are going to pay a fortune for it.

 

[Imakeller]

It is not clairvoyance, it is physics. Physics dictate which geometries work well, and which don't. Therefore, you can make educated predictions from appearance only. See for example:

In Floyd Toole I might trust, but all others should bring data. Absent data, the armchair eyeball assessments should be tempered.

 

[Mort]

Why, on the internet of all places, should someone restrain themselves from speculating about how a speaker sounds? No one is saying their eyeball assessment is a substitution for data. But you would be wrong to say nothing meaningful can be learned from looking at a speaker.

 

[Ropeburn]

What's expensive to some is trivial to others. It's a very relative term, so IMO not a great foundation for a discussion.

I think it's OK to make fun of poor price-performance. Hate is negative energy and I wouldn't waste it on any audio equipment.

Hate may be a strong word, but I reserve mine for the people behind it. Because I hate fraudsters in general and find them despicable. It's a matter of basic morality.

 

[solderdude]

Where does one find a resource wrt in interpreting spin data correctly?

Assuming there is a single "correctly" to begin with. I've read endless debates about what matter and what doesn't matter, and what the optimal DI is between Amir, Arindal, Chris A, Duke, Sigberg Audio, Vera Audio... And even Floyd Toole, Lars Risbo or Jack Oclee-Brown occasionally chime in.

There is no universal 'correct' way to interpret spin data in the sense that it will predict HOW the speaker will sound in YOUR or any other room that is not equal to the virtual room 'specified' in the spin data.
All it can tell you is how it is likely to perform in a 'good' listening room.

But it is known that good measuring speakers are very likely to sound 'good' in most rooms than the speakers that have a less well dispersion pattern or weird tonality.

It also says nothing about personal taste either. If your taste differs from 'the standard' then you need to EQ it to taste.
Could well be there are some 'wonky' speakers that do not measure well happen to hit your sweet spot in your room.

There are better chances of getting this right with speakers that show a good spin.

 

[Matias]

I had missed that excellent comment from Dr. Toole.

Having looked at lots of speaker measurements on ASR over the last few years, I constantly do the same thing - looking at the size of the midrange and the presence or absence of a tweeter waveguide - whenever I see an unfamiliar loudspeaker. It almost always predicts measured performance. (The correlation is not perfect. Some unusual midranges and coaxial drivers go high, and some tweeters go low.) Drives the "high-end" crowd crazy!

Totally agree, and applied that logic here.

Cambridge Audio L/R Series Active Streaming Speakers announced

Didn't see these coming! Cambridge Audio is launching a series of active (streaming) speakers in 3 different sizes. The design has hints of Buchardt, Ascilab, with various color options like the Pro-Ject bookshelfs. Streaming functionality is reserved for the larger "M" & "X" variants and can...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[EngineerNate]

Toole, Putzys, Linkwitz et al have established very well what predicts good listener scores and have achieved such via several different means.

Genelec, JBL, Revel, KEF, Dutch & Dutch, Kii, Neumann, and others have all produced state of the art performing units meant for various sized spaces and volume levels. All showing great frequency response, dispersion, and distortion characteristics.

They all top out cost wise under $100k.

You simply aren’t going to do better spending $800k from a sound point of view and you’ll likely do much worse because those brands have the best R&D teams in the business, vs “some guy who thinks his poo doesn’t stink and that silver plating cables makes things sparklier”

There just isn’t room to make an M2 or 8381A or 15C or Kii 3 system 10X better for the money the boutique companies are charging. This will be the case until they find some way to make sound that isn't a speaker cone with a coil attached to it. And even then it might still be the case. These systems are better than your ears have the ability to perceive from a frequency response/distortion perspective, and picking between them is largely going to depend on how they interact with your particular room rather than any specific performance metric. In a well treated room with proper room correction you'd likely struggle to distinguish them consistently in a blind test.

 

[Oddball]

Toole, Putzys, Linkwitz et al have established very well what predicts good listener scores and have achieved such via several different means.

Genelec, JBL, Revel, KEF, Dutch & Dutch, Kii, Neumann, and others have all produced state of the art performing units meant for various sized spaces and volume levels. All showing great frequency response, dispersion, and distortion characteristics.

They all top out cost wise under $100k.

You simply aren’t going to do better spending $800k from a sound point of view and you’ll likely do much worse because those brands have the best R&D teams in the business, vs “some guy who thinks his poo doesn’t stink and that silver plating cables makes things sparklier”

There just isn’t room to make an M2 or 8381A or 15C or Kii 3 system 10X better for the money the boutique companies are charging. This will be the case until they find some way to make sound that isn't a speaker cone with a coil attached to it. And even then it might still be the case. These systems are better than your ears have the ability to perceive from a frequency response/distortion perspective, and picking between them is largely going to depend on how they interact with your particular room rather than any specific performance metric. In a well treated room with proper room correction you'd likely struggle to distinguish them consistently in a blind test.

Must say though that under $100K is a bit rich for most tastes, mine included. I would say sub $10K for pair is unfortunately what things cost nowadays if one is looking for towers. Could see adventurous budget to turn to up to $20K a pair, but further from that I just don't see much value. Also, with today's advanced bass management there is lots of value in large passive monitors paired with large subs. For example, a pair of Arendal 1528 monitors and a pair of 1723 2V subs will cost about EUR 12K. Highest SPL for passive speakers and overall low distortion system (provided proper integration).

$100K is a budget for no holes barred 9.4.6 HT system with reference SPL at low distortion - at least IMO. Example would be the same Arendal monitors all around and same subs plus Marantz AV10/Amp 10.

$800K is really a nice retirement fund for a normal person which could bring in $5-6K a month.

I really don't hate things or people. But don't see value in overspending. If people want to overspend, that is their own business. Even if what they buy is underperforming - again their problem.

 

[Mnyb]

It’s also a paradox if your got rich by our own means and hard work or god investments you don’t have the bad judgment of buying these Wilson’s at 800k$

 

[kemmler3D]

It’s also a paradox if your got rich by our own means and hard work or god investments you don’t have the bad judgment of buying these Wilson’s at 800k$

There are some rich people who got their money effectively by winning 10 coin tosses in a row. They may not be smart at all, just lucky. There are many others who are good at what they do but have no clue how audio works.

Someone with half a billion to their name might buy these speakers thinking they're making an investment in a good listening experience. They may assume they are getting almost as much for their money as someone who paid $8k for a slightly scuffed pair of used Salon 2s.

They would be wrong, and wrong in ways and to an extent they could not have anticipated.

I'm not crying for the multi millionaires who don't bother doing their homework, but there's no reason to think they're smarter about audio than anyone else. In fact the existence of speakers like this suggests the opposite.

When I worked for an audio company, I met with various investors. All quite rich. None of them knew a damn thing about audio, honestly. A few thought they did.

 

[JeffS7444]

Yes, but they're also selling it as an accurate, hi fidelity product, which is almost certainly a lie

Publishing detailed performance specifications mostly benefits sellers of more affordable gear, not those positioned as ultra-boutique brands. All you need to know about Wilson Audio can be summarized in an old, full-page ad depicting a thoughtful-looking David Wilson appearing to listen while making adjustments to a crossover network. I don't know what the man's original daytime job was, but he spent years establishing his bona fides with his audience as a TAS reviewer before becoming a speaker manufacturer.

It's possible that WA own and use a Klippel themselves, but if queried, they might respond with a knowing smile and "Yes, it's super-useful in developing our products, but it only tells us so much...", thus implying that it cannot replace the depth of their experience in the field. And it's that last, impossible-to-quantify bit which allows them charge what they will for their products.

 

[KL....]

Thank you, measure is the indicator, reasonable, no measure and/or impressions what can be discussed other than (irrelevant) semantics/synergys (Babyl/Propaganda). So.what does this suggest, well, consider what you are actually discussing, reasonable? Extend your Life/Experience, consider..... shift the good wheat from the chaff/tares or be in a position where you can only hear yourself..... many choices, what is you choice? may your choice be Wise and Helpful? Such as....

• Such as Excellence of Engineering without Obsolesce
• If it meets this than ok, can I afford it, at this time. If no, than the future is a consideration, reasonable?
• So much to consider without Coveting,

 

[test1223]

No. Decades of research have created a set of measurements that are highly predictive in listener preference for speakers. This is what enables us to critique a speaker from measurements. It is not absolute but if a company doesn't even dare to show the measurements, we can be pretty sure it is not good.

The predicted preference score should be understood as an approximation of real blind listening results. Its reliability tends to decrease as tonal accuracy improves, because other measurable factors—such as dynamic compression, multi-tone distortion, and similar effects—become more relevant compared to minor tonal differences.

Agree for good vs bad forward radiating speakers. Disagree for good vs good forward radiating speakers. Not aware of any published Harman tests of say JBL vs Genelec or Revel vs KEF, etc, especially >say 2010, when most of the Harman tests were already concluded. At least the published ones. Would love to see those kinds of listening tests, but alas those days are past unless another company/McGill etc resumes. If you have some inside scoop please share!

Exactly!!

Not my experience. Check out the Genelec 8361A:

Switch to good expensive speakers. The usual suspects, which are usually praised, have already been addressed in the thread I see; JBL,Revel, KEF, Neumann,Genelec and Dutch & Dutch and so on. There are threads about such good speakers but correct me if I'm wrong, I think those threads are not as well visited as those about expensive bad speakers? Hence TS's bias about all very expensive speakers?

Most of the speakers discussed here fall into the relatively small and more affordable category. Even within the Genelec lineup, the 8361A is not their flagship model. Only when paired with the W371A system could it arguably be considered top-tier. Models like the 8380A or 1236A are positioned much higher and can reasonably be described as state of the art. That said, even the 8380A receives mixed to negative feedback relative to its price.

In general, this forum tends to favor speakers with strong price-to-performance ratios. Products that sit outside that category—especially very expensive ones—are often criticized more harshly. However, based on my experience, achieving the level of sound quality offered by systems like the ATC SCM 300 ASL Pro (with subs), Acapella Hyperion, or Focal Grande Utopia EM Evo is simply not possible by choosing smaller, more cost-efficient alternatives.

Which is the problem. Wilson claims that is the most accurate speaker there is. Yet, we know from measurements of their previous products that they don't at all subscribe to that model. And one look at the visual design and you can predict massive amount of internal reflections, diffraction, etc. causing errors in response.

The only part where you have a point is that it is likely able to play quite loud. And with it, blow away many of our favorite, but much smaller cheaper speakers out of the water. But that kind of bass loudness doesn't need to cost close to a million dollars. Or come with compromises above that.

When comparing speakers side by side, some theoretically measurable flaws (like diffraction effects) may be less subjectively significant, while other performance aspects become more dominant. This can make it difficult to dismiss certain high-end speakers entirely—even when their imperfections are audible—because they may still deliver state-of-the-art performance in other areas. After all, no speaker is without flaws.


If you compare something (which is very popular here) like the KEF Blade, with good speakers from significantly higher price categories, you’ll likely find that your frame of reference needs to shift accordingly.

 

[Talisman]

However, based on my experience, achieving the level of sound quality offered by systems like the ATC SCM 300 ASL Pro (with subs), Acapella Hyperion, or Focal Grande Utopia EM Evo is simply not possible by choosing smaller, more cost-efficient alternatives.

For scientific and demonstrable reasons or because you think so?

 

[IPunchCholla]

From my point a view, reviewing a speaker can hardly lead to a valid verdict if no listening to music was included.

Reviews of a car can’t come to a valid verdict if no one took a ride with it.

Oh, interesting. A car analogy. Haven't seen that before.

If we treat listening like driving, we should all be hanging out on the Klippel distortion test and similar. Taking our hearing to the track and improving skills. Listening at home is the trip to the grocery store, which pretty much every vehicle can handle.

 

[Audionaut]

I've been around. I've visited all the major dealers in NYC, London, DC, the Bay Area, and Chicago. But they're all tiny compared to what one finds in East Asia.

You spent any time at the Adelphi Mall?

Sham Shui Po or Mongkok?

The Yongsan electro mall?

Akihabara?

So, yeah, I have a pretty good sample size.

I assume you're US-American?
No, I don't travel to the US, so the places you mentioned are out of the question, but I have been to some really excellent hi-fi and music stores in Berlin, Hamburg, Munich, Stuttgart, Düsseldorf, and Cologne. The same goes for Madrid, Paris, Rom, Kopenhagen, Amsterdam, Utrecht and London.
In Asia, only in Istanbul—if it was the Asian part—and in Dubai. Everywhere I went, I found very competent and knowledgeable staff who really did their jobs with enthusiasm and a lot of fun.
Would I therefore presume to claim that I know all the good hi-fi stores in the world? Probably not.

I don't think the sheer size of a store says anything about how good a hi-fi store is—quite the opposite, in fact.

Would I claim that the best ones are represented at ASR anyway? How would I know who I’m leaving out?

But it’s always great to meet such incredibly cool people who’ve seen it all and can form a well-founded opinion on everything.

 

[test1223]

For scientific and demonstrable reasons or because you think so?

You can show that in a lot of categories like dynamic range and so on most very expensive speakers are clearly superior to these "smaller" beloved speaker here.

Take your favorite speaker to any dealer and do a listening test against their top (most expensive?!) model. Most will set up a comparison for you and you will most likely at least get a glimpse why the dealer likes this speaker the most.

 

[Oddball]

If you compare something (which is very popular here) like the KEF Blade, with good speakers from significantly higher price categories, you’ll likely find that your frame of reference needs to shift accordingly.

I have heard quite a bit of high end speakers over the years but never really encountered this effect. In fact, my frame of reference shifted by a flip-phase after I started experiencing Dirac ART bass management.

My friend recently bought Arendal 1528 monitors (kind of monitors, 50kg each) and two 1723 2V subs - upon my advice, and bass managing it with ART. I helped him set it up as have some ART experience in larger multi-channel setup. My jaw dropped when we are all done. The way that sounds and how loud it can get is incredible. My friend listens only to classical music and was entirely impressed. For good recordings, he noted that this is better than the real thing in most venues. So this is explanation to my reference in the previous post.

Suggest that people just start thinking in new terms and forget the old references. No great tower is really great once you taste the properly integrated subs and can unleash real hell with 110dB or more at MLP (for peaks). I know that lots of people think of these SPL levels as savage, but I understand it as immersion. Equivalent would be trying to enjoy video on small display. Getting to real life scale and dynamics is an eye opening experience.

 

[Talisman]

You can show that in a lot of categories like dynamic range and so on most very expensive speakers are clearly superior to these "smaller" beloved speaker here.

Take your favorite speaker to any dealer and do a listening test against their top (most expensive?!) model. Most will set up a comparison for you and you will most likely at least get a glimpse why the dealer likes this speaker the most.

So, is it just a matter of dynamics? You can buy PA speakers for $10,000 and have dynamics and sound pressure levels that will blow away any high-end speaker.
You can cut them to 80 Hz with four subwoofers costing $3,000 each and have power, dynamics, and zero distortion that will make you pale.
Do you have any other strings to your bow?