Why most users here HATE all very expensive speakers?

[Oddball]

I'm not after anything. I was just curious what was available from brands that are actually competing in this market at the professional level. Looks like a top of the line setup for studio mains is about 1/10th the price of the Wilsons. Then I got curious as to why almost all of them (with subs included) are only aiming for 45Hz on the low end. I find my $600 speakers and sub totally adequate to my use case (mostly near field monitoring and small room listening).

There is professional market for large venues, including open spaces, than professional market for studios, and then our own home market. I am almost certain that in home environment you will not need anything that exceeds current 115db constant /118db peak SPL that home rated gear can provide. This is for the speakers, subs are easy and they just stack up to whatever SPL or FQ extension your need - provided proper integration and of course budget.

If you need more than that, look at what studios are doing. These things tend to run expensive though.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Let's make it reasonable, 3% for both, down to at least 30Hz.

In-room or anechoically? 120db/30hz@1m anechoically is pretty loud. Even moving it up to 40hz is a significant difference.

120dB, 30hz@1m anechoically with less than 3% THD is probably a way bigger speaker than you think.

 

[Sokel]

120dB, 30hz@1m anechoically with less than 3% THD is probably a way bigger speaker than you think.

I know what I think, hence my view about the exponential increase in price as we are approaching such performance.

 

[Sokel]

In-room or anechoically? 120db/30hz@1m anechoically is pretty loud. Even moving it up to 40hz is a significant difference.

120dB, 30hz@1m anechoically with less than 3% THD is probably a way bigger speaker than you think.

Take Kef Muon for example (and scrap the looks, check only about performance) so to get away from main monitors and go lifestyle.

450 liters, six (6) 10" LF drivers, etc.

They claim 118dB for it at super low distortion, which seems doable even very low and anechoically.

(that's twelve (12) LF drivers for a pair in a room, the real estate alone... )

 

[sigbergaudio]

I know what I think, hence my view about the exponential increase in price as we are approaching such performance.

Yep. If you look at for instance the Arendal Sound 2V subwoofer (a relatively large ported subwoofer with 2x13.8" drivers). That's around 118dB@1m/30hz in a CEA2010 test, which allows for up to ~20% THD, so way more than 3%.

 

[Audionaut]

120dB, 30hz@1m anechoically with less than 3% THD is probably a way bigger speaker than you think.

Yes, you can figure it out pretty easily, more or less.

Why most users here HATE all very expensive speakers?

I don’t hate them. I’d rather buy a boat if I want a money pit though. My 2 cents is if you like em and have the cash, go for it. I have friends who will spend $800 on a golf club and they still suck at golf. Speakers are furniture, so it’s not unreasonable to want something that looks...

www.audiosciencereview.com

At the same frequency and stroke, you need 16 times the surface area for the same excursion and the same assumed distortion (here 3% at 30 Hz).

Economies of scale and room acoustics are not taken into account in this idealized calculation, because below the Schröder frequency, the bass interacts more strongly with the room, and a small, enclosed room often delivers significantly higher levels in the low frequencies than a free-field environment.

However, if all speakers reproduce the same signal in phase and couple cleanly in the bass, the following approximation applies when multiplying the diaphragm area and displacement volume >>>
2 speakers → +6 dB
4 speakers → +12 dB
8 speakers → +18 dB
16 speakers → +24 dB

 

[sigbergaudio]

But it's an unecessarily hard goal as well. You will get lots of room gain at 30hz, and also you don't need 3% at this low frequency, so you can play very loud with something much more realistic.

 

[Audionaut]

Then I got curious as to why almost all of them (with subs included) are only aiming for 45Hz on the low end.

Do you have any specific examples of that?
With a subwoofer included, most high-quality systems can go much lower in the bass range.

 

[Audionaut]

But it's an unecessarily hard goal as well. You will get lots of room gain at 30hz, and also you don't need 3% at this low frequency, so you can play very loud with something much more realistic.

Hi Thorbjørn,
It was just a matter of answering a somewhat hypothetical question while keeping the same distortion at 24db more output

 

[Audionaut]

To get back to the original question:
I don’t think anyone here actually hates expensive speakers.

The key point for me is that the price reflects the performance—primarily the technical performance. That’s the main goal.

The rest is the packaging, meaning the visual design, which has to match personal preferences.
That’s nice to have, but secondary.

When these two factors are in a ratio that makes sense within the overall market and are reflected in the price, criticism—if any—is usually mild and objective.

But as soon as it becomes clear that within this triangle of technical performance, design, and price, there is a distinctly unusual imbalance in favor of pricing, the criticism becomes much louder.
But in my opinion, you can’t really call it hate.

 

[ShadowFiend]

Do we have measurements here too, or just anecdotal thoughts?
Because, to be honest, these seem like the usual theoretical excuses unsupported by data.
"Thinking that" or "believing" doesn't make the assumptions true, which is why in ASR the practice is to measure, to dismantle audiophile dogmas based on nothing.

For the first claim, I have experience with PA speaker since I worked part time as hardware technician for our university's student group on culture and communication 15 years ago. I noticed our PA speakers sound good with really high volume on event but when testing at low volume before the event, their sound is IMHO horrible. Thanks to a fellow member IamJF in diyaudio, I have some answer. Here is his THD measurement in comparison between many 8" drivers, both PA and Hifi.
PHL 2460

Beyma 8P300

FaitalPro 8PR200

18Sound 8NMB420

ScanSpeak 22W/8857

All of them are not cheap, and some of PA speaker drivers like PHL2460 have THD corresponding with SPL level, which is same as most high quality Hifi Speakers. I have distortion measurement from Hobby Hifi (90dB SPL), Klang+Ton (85dB SPL and 95dB SPL), HifiCompass (verious SPL level) and verify that for decent Hifi Speaker from Scan Speak, SEAS, Wavecor, Purifi then distortion is corresponding to SPL..

For the second claim about motor noise. It is basic mechanical phenomenon and has been proved by math and engineering for hundred year. Any mechanical student will study this things in fluid mechanics. The hole in magnet that you see is a method to cool the voice coil but also create air turbulance. For Hifi manufactures like Scan Speak, Purifi or PA manufacturers for studio monitors like PHL, they use one big vent. This is not the most effective way of cooling but enable them to optimize the profile of vent and vent opening to reduce the air turbulence. Many PA manufacturers for outdoor PA like B&C, 18Sound uses small vented holes spread out on the magnet. It is a better solutions for heat cooling but will create the much bigger air turbulence since there is no room for vent optimization. The more SPL is, the bigger turbulence problem will be. Of course, for outdoor PA, no one cares about this noise since audience will be several meters far from speaker But for domestic one, it can cause problem. I have work with 10NDL64 from B&C and can confirm this problem.

 

[ShadowFiend]

Many members on this forums do not hate expensive speakers, myself included. But I also saw a lot of members have shows displease when seeing a speaker with big price tag, even when it is very likely to have good to great measurements like D&D 15C, Vivid Moya, Magico M9 while having much higher capabilities in terms of SPL, more bass extension and better finishing quality and style than the normal speaker. Having read those comments and the amount of "Like" it received, people who are not familiar of this forums can easily think the forums hate expensive speakers.

 

[RickS]

Many members on this forums do not hate expensive speakers, myself included. But I also saw a lot of members have shows displease when seeing a speaker with big price tag, even when it is very likely to have good to great measurements like D&D 15C, Vivid Moya, Magico M9 while having much higher capabilities in terms of SPL, more bass extension and better finishing quality and style than the normal speaker. Having read those comments and the amount of "Like" it received, people who are not familiar of this forums can easily think the forums hate expensive speakers.

I concur and suggest this a good thought to put a close to this thread.