Why most users here HATE all very expensive speakers?

[test1223]

Hello,

from my experience on ASR, almost no very expensive speaker receives broadly positive recognition. A recent example is the new flagship model from Wilson Audio, which is extremely costly. I understand that many people here prefer to rely on measurements or “proof” on paper to validate a speaker’s performance and only a few manufacturers provide such data.

But even brands with a generally good reputation in this community, such as JBL or Genelec, often receive more negative feedback when it comes to their higher-end or flagship models. Their measurements are frequently scrutinized in great detail, sometimes to the point where every possible flaw is highlighted. At the same time, actual listening tests (which could put these measurements into a more meaningful context) are often avoided or dismissed.

There are many threads where not a single participant has heard the speaker in question, yet dozens of people still offer negative judgments.

This makes me wonder why that is the case. Of course, there are expensive speakers that do not perform well, and sometimes this can indeed be identified through the standard measurements. However, there are also exceptional speakers that are very costly but deliver phenomenal sound quality at least in some categories like sound stage, live like dynamics or... To truly appreciate their capabilities, it is necessary to listen to them in person and experience what they can do!

My somewhat critical assumption is that many people here may have limited experience listening to a wide range of state-of-the-art loudspeakers, and possibly also limited exposure to the sound of real instruments. Only a small number seem to regularly visit dealers, manufacturers, or live acoustic concerts to explore different approaches to audio reproduction.

Nevertheless, many participants appear very confident in judging speakers—often in a negative way.

I don’t intend to offend anyone with these remarks. However, I do feel that this approach may lead people in the wrong direction and prevent them from ever experiencing great sound.

Best regards
Thomas

 

[Beave]

Hate is not the correct word at all.

More like laugh at, or scoff at, or ridicule. But hate? Nah.

 

[antisuck]

This place is and always has been overwhelmingly about measurements and science and proof. Any speaker lacking those things but expecting us to buy based on "but you must really EXPERIENCE it to fully appreciate its capabilities" is of course going to be subject to scrutiny. Even more so if it costs as much as a very nice car or a starter home. And if a manufacturer asks us to pay that much, they darn well ought to be prepared to provide some proof.

 

[test1223]

This place is and always has been overwhelmingly about measurements and science and proof. Any speaker lacking those things but expecting us to buy based on "but you must really EXPERIENCE it to fully appreciate its capabilities" is of course going to be subject to scrutiny. Even more so if it costs as much as a very nice car or a starter home. And if a manufacturer asks us to pay that much, they darn well ought to be prepared to provide some proof.

Isn't a (ideally blind) listening test the one and only meaningful prove?! I think many people here have forgotten this fundermentally true fact.

 

[PristineSound]

My somewhat critical assumption is that many people here may have limited experience listening to a wide range of state-of-the-art loudspeakers, and possibly also limited exposure to the sound of real instruments. Only a small number seem to regularly visit dealers, manufacturers, or live acoustic concerts to explore different approaches to audio reproduction

A lot to unpack here.

Maybe first share with us what is your experience listening to SOTA speakers and how and where did you listen to them?

I can confidently tell you that an ample number of members here have heard plenty of truly SOTA speakers and self proclaimed SOTA speakers, all you have to do is spend $30 on a ticket to an audio show.

I probably have heard hundreds of speakers between audio shows and dealer showrooms. However, that means very little. Hearing speakers at an audio show and at a dealer is hard to evaluate a speaker for reasons I won't get into here.

Then can you please define what makes a speaker SOTA in your books? Is it scarcity/exclusivity? Is it brand recognition? Is it price? Or is it objective performance? I ask this because many self proclaimed, marketing proclaimed, subjective reviewer proclaimed SOTA is in fact, a fake news.

And can you share why acoustic concerts have anything to do with anything? Live music venues generally have sh|tty acoustics.

There is so much more to unpack but, let's start with that.

 

[TurtlePaul]

I personally can look at performance and price separately. However, a lot of people evaluate speakers primarily from the price vs. performance perspective. When you see the performance of ~$10k/pair speakers, it is hard to consider above that price. Revel F228Be, Kef Reference 1 meta, Neumann KH 420, Genelec 8361a, Dutch & Dutch 8c. All have great performance to hearing damage volumes. From an objective point of view it is hard to say why you would spend more. Of course some people want overkill SPL or certain style/designs.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

Hello,

from my experience on ASR, almost no very expensive speaker receives broadly positive recognition. A recent example is the new flagship model from Wilson Audio, which is extremely costly. I understand that many people here prefer to rely on measurements or “proof” on paper to validate a speaker’s performance and only a few manufacturers provide such data.

But even brands with a generally good reputation in this community, such as JBL or Genelec, often receive more negative feedback when it comes to their higher-end or flagship models. Their measurements are frequently scrutinized in great detail, sometimes to the point where every possible flaw is highlighted. At the same time, actual listening tests (which could put these measurements into a more meaningful context) are often avoided or dismissed.

There are many threads where not a single participant has heard the speaker in question, yet dozens of people still offer negative judgments.

This makes me wonder why that is the case. Of course, there are expensive speakers that do not perform well, and sometimes this can indeed be identified through the standard measurements. However, there are also exceptional speakers that are very costly but deliver phenomenal sound quality at least in some categories like sound stage, live like dynamics or... To truly appreciate their capabilities, it is necessary to listen to them in person and experience what they can do!

My somewhat critical assumption is that many people here may have limited experience listening to a wide range of state-of-the-art loudspeakers, and possibly also limited exposure to the sound of real instruments. Only a small number seem to regularly visit dealers, manufacturers, or live acoustic concerts to explore different approaches to audio reproduction.

Nevertheless, many participants appear very confident in judging speakers—often in a negative way.

I don’t intend to offend anyone with these remarks. However, I do feel that this approach may lead people in the wrong direction and prevent them from ever experiencing great sound.

Best regards
Thomas

It is a false premise that "most users here hate all very expensive speakers." Or, if you think it is a true premise, can you support it with evidence beyond a few personal opinions?

 

[Mort]

I understand that many people here prefer to rely on measurements or “proof” on paper to validate a speaker’s performance

I would say you do not understand that because you repudiate it in the next paragraph.

However, there are also exceptional speakers that are very costly but deliver phenomenal sound quality at least in some categories like sound stage, live like dynamics or... To truly appreciate their capabilities, it is necessary to listen to them in person and experience what they can do!

Subjectivism by any other name is subjectivism.

There are many threads where not a single participant has heard the speaker in question, yet dozens of people still offer negative judgments.

Are you new to the Internet?

Nevertheless, many participants appear very confident in judging speakers

You appear very confident in judging us.

 

[Gwreck]

My personal perspective is that often the ultra expensive speakers are primarily for the 1%’ers bragging rights. So they often do deserve the derision as does much of the frivolous crap the ultra wealthy do.

 

[Jim Taylor]

I understand that many people here prefer to rely on measurements or “proof” on paper to validate a speaker’s performance

Measurements exist to show flaws (non-performance), faults (dangerous grounding schemes) and non-compliance compared to advertised characteristics. That's what Quality Control does ... it weeds out the junk.

.... even brands with a generally good reputation in this community, such as JBL or Genelec, often receive more negative feedback when it comes to their higher-end or flagship models. Their measurements are frequently scrutinized in great detail, sometimes to the point where every possible flaw is highlighted.

This attitude has been ingrained in our value system for thousands of years. "To him who has been given much, much will be expected."

At the same time, actual listening tests (which could put these measurements into a more meaningful context) are often avoided or dismissed.

Any information that is not replicable (reproducible) from one person to another is of low value. Instrumental measurements are reproducible ... opinions based on conditions not exhibiting rigorous controls aren't.

To truly appreciate their capabilities, it is necessary to listen to them in person and experience what they can do!

Apprectiation is subjective ... it is emotional, and can change not only from one person to the next, but also for one person on different days or in different environments.

and possibly also limited exposure to the sound of real instruments.

Years ago, a violinist for a large orchestra complained that the recording sounded nothing like his violin. The recording engineer said, "Of course not. The audience is 30 feet away. The microphone is 30 feet away. You have no f*cking idea what your violin sounds like at a distance of 30 feet." End of complaints.

I do feel that this approach may lead people in the wrong direction and prevent them from ever experiencing great sound.

I think it prevents people from being led in the wrong direction.

 

[Audionaut]

even brands with a generally good reputation in this community, such as JBL or Genelec, often receive more negative feedback

I definitely see it differently. I can’t speak for how others evaluate speakers, but for me, I always look at the technical aspects first. Only then do I consider them in relation to the price. I like to think I have a very good understanding of the components used to build speakers, and for many speakers on the market, these are components available to anyone or ones that have been slightly adapted to the manufacturer’s needs. Generally, the price makes sense when you factor in development, personnel, warehousing, production, service, and distribution.
Sometimes, however, products come onto the market that are simply ridiculous because they’re just outrageously overpriced gimmicks that sell more looks and status than actual audio performance.
They’ll just have to live with a little ridicule.
But I don’t see it that way with Genelec products or JBL’s studio and PA speakers. That said, JBL does sometimes release lifestyle products—in which case your impression might be correct.
I do enjoy mocking pieces of furniture into which someone with absolutely no understanding of acoustics has installed completely unsuitable components—and then tries to sell them at overpriced rates.
Unfortunately, there are far too many of those on the market.

 

[CD2]

This forum is built around a bias toward what is measurable. It is also open to cheap stuff without pedigrees. This is good.

Yes, there are a few tiresome purists, but that is what the "ignore" feature is for.

As a veteran of decades of these places: it is fruitless to yell at an entire internet forum. It will certainly not change views. Take what is useful to you, and spend your time in places that make you happy.

 

[JSmith]

A recent example is the new flagship model from Wilson Audio, which is extremely costly.

Any company charging $788000 is just taking the piss, especially without measurements. Yes, I "hate" that... not speakers, I love speakers.


JSmith

 

[SHB]

My thoughts are this:
• If you can justify the cost with sane, rational engineering (regardless of how fringe it is), I can understand the cost. Rockport Lyra’s or McIntosh XRT2.1K’s or the legendary Infinity IRS are worth the price due to the provable fact that they are building speakers on the bleeding edge of technology. Wilson Audio is not doing that in any sense.

• 25 years ago, I owned Paradigm LRC-450 active mains & Servo 15 subs ($4k). It was my first 20-20kHz (+\-1dB) system. After I got it dialed in, I went back to the dealer to see how my system faired against Meridian DSP8000 actives ($45k). The two systems at sane levels sounded almost identical. Pushed to actual rock concert levels, my Paradigm mains ran out of steam and the limiters kicked in. The DSP8000’s seemed to have no dynamic limits.

The point is that you can get 95% of the performance of the best speakers in the world for less than 10% of the price.

You pay a great deal for every percentage point past 95.

 

[amirm]

Isn't a (ideally blind) listening test the one and only meaningful prove?!

No. Decades of research have created a set of measurements that are highly predictive in listener preference for speakers. This is what enables us to critique a speaker from measurements. It is not absolute but if a company doesn't even dare to show the measurements, we can be pretty sure it is not good.

 

[amirm]

But even brands with a generally good reputation in this community, such as JBL or Genelec, often receive more negative feedback when it comes to their higher-end or flagship models.

Not my experience. Check out the Genelec 8361A:

98% voted it great or very good.

 

[amirm]

from my experience on ASR, almost no very expensive speaker receives broadly positive recognition. A recent example is the new flagship model from Wilson Audio, which is extremely costly. I understand that many people here prefer to rely on measurements or “proof” on paper to validate a speaker’s performance and only a few manufacturers provide such data.

Which is the problem. Wilson claims that is the most accurate speaker there is. Yet, we know from measurements of their previous products that they don't at all subscribe to that model. And one look at the visual design and you can predict massive amount of internal reflections, diffraction, etc. causing errors in response.

The only part where you have a point is that it is likely able to play quite loud. And with it, blow away many of our favorite, but much smaller cheaper speakers out of the water. But that kind of bass loudness doesn't need to cost close to a million dollars. Or come with compromises above that.

 

[Audionaut]

And one look at the visual design and you can predict massive amount of internal reflections, diffraction, etc. causing errors in response.

Yes, terrible

 

[JeffS7444]

I don't hate it, I simply think they're selling it as a luxury product to a select audience (not ASR!) who are into that sort of thing. The price, and the exclusivity that comes with it, are a big part of the appeal.

 

[Audionaut]

my Paradigm mains ran out of steam and the limiters kicked in. The DSP8000’s seemed to have no dynamic limits.
The point is that you can get 95% of the performance of the best speakers in the world for less than 10% of the price.
You pay a great deal for every percentage point past 95.

You describe a specific experience and attribute it to price rather than technical differences. At the same time, you draw a general conclusion from it. I find this problematic and untenable.

In the case of your comparison, the Meridian simply has a significantly higher displacement volume, which, from a technical standpoint, explains the potentially higher maximum sound pressure level. That’s six 8-inch drivers in a phase-compensating configuration, each actively driven and equipped with active high-pass filtering in the subsonic range.

With a diaphragm area of approximately 1,200 square centimeters, it roughly corresponds to that of an 18-inch driver. That’s massive power for a home environment, but it’s explained by the electroacoustics, not by the price.