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Why Levinson 333 sounds brighter than Krell KSA200s on the same speaker?

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MasterApex

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what methodology did you use?

Playing the same music and hearing the difference in stereo mode....switch preamp output to next amp, move speakers connectors to next amp.

Concerned about the time lag in switching amplifier may impact our hearing memory.
We also experimented with a mono setup, pre-amp output set to merged mono, L side to AMP1 and R side to AMP2 , then use balance to go L or R while playing the same music
 

krabapple

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So this is an exercise of sweeping the frequency , one frequency at a time. It seems to validate the frequency response of the amplifier. May not necessarily tell how the amp reacts to complex waveforms of mixed frequency interaction with speaker load but I will try to do this once I figure out how. Thanks

IOW '..but music is different!'

er...no
 

Wes

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Playing the same music and hearing the difference in stereo mode....switch preamp output to next amp, move speakers connectors to next amp.

Concerned about the time lag in switching amplifier may impact our hearing memory.
We also experimented with a mono setup, pre-amp output set to merged mono, L side to AMP1 and R side to AMP2 , then use balance to go L or R while playing the same music

you need to carefully match levels, do it blind, and see if you can tell the difference at a statistically valid probability

mono is a good idea
 

MrPeabody

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If there genuinely is an audible difference, it will almost certainly have to be attributed to a difference in amplifier output impedance, and thus a difference in the extent to which the speaker's impedance peaks produce corresponding peaks in the voltage at the speaker terminals. This is what Pdxwayne was alluding to when he pointed out the difference in damping factor. While this effect is a theoretical possibility, it is fairly unlikely to be a plausible explanation because even with the higher output impedance of the Krell, the peaks in the voltage at the speaker terminals will most likely be very much below the threshold of audibility.

If you want to be taken seriously by most everyone on this forum you need to use objective measurements to demonstrate that you really did hear what you thought you heard. Very many people on this forum have ample first-hand experience with people saying that they heard a difference but were then unable to demonstrate, in a double blind setup, that they could hear what they said they heard. The skepticism that you'll encounter here, when making a claim such as the one you've made, is well-justified skepticism.

Fortunately, there is an easy way for you to demonstrate that the speaker really does sound different with the two different amplifiers. This does not require taking any acoustic measurements. Because only one speaker need be used to test this hypothesis, all you need do is measure the voltage at the speaker terminals using a good voltmeter capable of accurate rms readings as high in frequency as 20 kHz. You obviously need an accurate source of sinusoidal tones, but you can find this on the web if you do not have a test CD with accurately recorded tones. You want to accurately measure voltage at a frequency that will be good for level-matching the two amplifiers, and for this, you want to use a frequency where the speaker impedance curve is very flat. Looking at the graph of the speaker impedance, 100 Hz or 125 Hz should be ideal for this. Read the voltage at this frequency as accurately as possible for one amplifier, and use this to adjust the other amplifier's output, so that at this frequency the voltage at the speaker terminals is the same for both amplifiers. Then with each speaker, take measurements at 1/3 octave intervals, or 1/2 octave intervals if it isn't fun. And take measurements at the specific frequencies where you see peaks and dips in the speaker's impedance curve. Then compare the two. If you see that voltage is different for the two speakers at some specific frequency, you can express this difference in decibels by dividing one of the voltage values into the other, then taking the base 10 log, then multiplying by 20. (Or you can express the peak as a deviation in decibels compared to the nominal value for that same amplifier, by dividing the reading at the peak or dip by the average value of the voltage readings for that amplifier.)

It will be a good idea for the speaker and the amplifiers to all be thoroughly warmed up before you do this. For example, if the speaker voice coil is much warmer when measuring for one amplifier than for the other one, this will affect the resistance of the coil which will affect the behavior the crossover and potentially affect the frequency response, especially near the crossover frequency. In fact, if you do measure a difference in frequency response for the two amplifiers, you will want to rule out this possible source of error, and to do that, you'll have to start over and make absolutely certain that everything is thoroughly warmed up when you take the measurements.

This is not a difficult to thing, and if you are convinced that the two amplifiers sound different and you want to know why, this is what you need to do. It is a productive thing to do. Much more productive than going to a web forum and reporting what you think you heard and then asking other people who weren't there to opine on the reason or on the veracity of the claim. People do this kind of thing all the time, but it serves no genuine purpose that I know of. Do the measurements, and if you find that the two amplifiers really are different with respect to frequency response, by all means report back. Meanwhile, don't laugh out loud when people express their skepticism. They have very good reason for the skepticism.
 
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MasterApex

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you need to carefully match levels, do it blind, and see if you can tell the difference at a statistically valid probability

mono is a good idea
Yes. We level match by running the white noise test and SPL meter so we know what volume settings for respective speakers.
 
OP
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MasterApex

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If there genuinely is an audible difference, it will almost certainly have to be attributed to a difference in amplifier output impedance, and thus a difference in the extent to which the speaker's impedance peaks produce corresponding peaks in the voltage at the speaker terminals. This is what Pdxwayne was alluding to when he pointed out the difference in damping factor. While this effect is a theoretical possibility, it is fairly unlikely to be a plausible explanation because even with the higher output impedance of the Krell, the peaks in the voltage at the speaker terminals will most likely be very much below the threshold of audibility.

If you want to be taken seriously by most everyone on this forum you need to use objective measurements to demonstrate that you really did hear what you thought you heard. Very many people on this forum have ample first-hand experience with people saying that they heard a difference but were then unable to demonstrate, in a double blind setup, that they could hear what they said they heard. The skepticism that you'll encounter here, when making a claim such as the one you've made, is well-justified skepticism.

Fortunately, there is an easy way for you to demonstrate that the speaker really does sound different with the two different amplifiers. This does not require taking any acoustic measurements. Because only one speaker need be used to test this hypothesis, all you need do is measure the voltage at the speaker terminals using a good voltmeter capable of accurate rms readings as high in frequency as 20 kHz. You obviously need an accurate source of sinusoidal tones, but you can find this on the web if you do not have a test CD with accurately recorded tones. You want to accurately measure voltage at a frequency that will be good for level-matching the two amplifiers, and for this, you want to use a frequency where the speaker impedance curve is very flat. Looking at the graph of the speaker impedance, 100 Hz or 125 Hz should be ideal for this. Read the voltage at this frequency as accurately as possible for one amplifier, and use this to adjust the other amplifier's output, so that at this frequency the voltage at the speaker terminals is the same for both amplifiers. Then with each speaker, take measurements at 1/3 octave intervals, or 1/2 octave intervals if it isn't fun. And take measurements at the specific frequencies where you see peaks and dips in the speaker's impedance curve. Then compare the two. If you see that voltage is different for the two speakers at some specific frequency, you can express this difference in decibels by dividing one of the voltage values into the other, then taking the base 10 log, then multiplying by 20. (Or you can express the peak as a deviation in decibels compared to the nominal value for that same amplifier, by dividing the reading at the peak or dip by the average value of the voltage readings for that amplifier.)

It will be a good idea for the speaker and the amplifiers to all be thoroughly warmed up before you do this. For example, if the speaker voice coil is much warmer when measuring for one amplifier than for the other one, this will affect the resistance of the coil which will affect the behavior the crossover and potentially affect the frequency response, especially near the crossover frequency. In fact, if you do measure a difference in frequency response for the two amplifiers, you will want to rule out this possible source of error, and to do that, you'll have to start over and make absolutely certain that everything is thoroughly warmed up when you take the measurements.

This is not a difficult to thing, and if you are convinced that the two amplifiers sound different and you want to know why, this is what you need to do. It is a productive thing to do. Much more productive than going to a web forum and reporting what you think you heard and then asking other people who weren't there to opine on the reason or on the veracity of the claim. People do this kind of thing all the time, but it serves no genuine purpose that I know of. Do the measurements, and if you find that the two amplifiers really are different with respect to frequency response, by all means report back. Meanwhile, don't laugh out loud when people express their skepticism. They have very good reason for the skepticism.

Thank you for taking the time to write down your suggestion.
It sounds like a lot of work so I am not 100% sure I am ready to commit time to measuring voltage and run numerous frequency sweep.

I am ok if some people don't believe me.
I have an old Denon AVR4308Ci receiver, I will try to connect it just to see if there is audible tonal balance difference.
I am also ordering a Benchmark AHB2 amp so will be comparing it too for observation.

I am sharing our (3 people , two of my friend) observations because we want to learn, are curious as to why (what is the technical attribute/s that can explain this).

I feel the damping factor explanation by pdxwayne is very logical so I just accept it :)
 

FrantzM

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MasterApex

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-0.25dB of difference is audible?
oppss ...I misread your math on the dB.
I guess not...
In doing white noise level calibration for each channel, I can barely detect 0.5dB, can detect 1dB for sure.

well then, I am not sure damping factor is the explanation for tonal balance difference :-(
 

RayDunzl

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Levinson 333 -
1620869791207.png


Krell KSA200S -
1620869861573.png
 

Blumlein 88

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Yes. We level match by running the white noise test and SPL meter so we know what volume settings for respective speakers.
Single tone at 1 khz and measure voltage at speaker is a superior method.
 

Blumlein 88

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oppss ...I misread your math on the dB.
I guess not...
In doing white noise level calibration for each channel, I can barely detect 0.5dB, can detect 1dB for sure.

well then, I am not sure damping factor is the explanation for tonal balance difference :-(
This is one of the traps. A .25 db difference will sound like the same loudness. But the louder setup will sound like a bit different quality to you on music.
 

Pdxwayne

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-0.25dB of difference is audible?
It is -0.25db per channel. When both channels are down 0.25db each, it would mean overall 0.5db down for region from 90hz to 900hz for music? Not sure my math is correct or not, but 0.5db would be noticeable....
 
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Chrispy

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Thank you for taking the time to write down your suggestion.
It sounds like a lot of work so I am not 100% sure I am ready to commit time to measuring voltage and run numerous frequency sweep.

I am ok if some people don't believe me.
I have an old Denon AVR4308Ci receiver, I will try to connect it just to see if there is audible tonal balance difference.
I am also ordering a Benchmark AHB2 amp so will be comparing it too for observation.

I am sharing our (3 people , two of my friend) observations because we want to learn, are curious as to why (what is the technical attribute/s that can explain this).

I feel the damping factor explanation by pdxwayne is very logical so I just accept it :)

Why are you doing this particularly if you don't want to do it as accurately as possible? It's not a matter of believing your assessment, but how you're getting there being valid to begin with. I think you still have a ways to go to sharpen up the comparison. Trying to use phrases like tonality to describe what you're hearing could be off, too.
 

audio2design

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We used Anthem AVM50v as pre-amp.
We tried to level match by running internal level calibration (white noise) so the output measured by SPL is about 82dBA.
We noticed that volume setting is higher with Krell to achieve the same SPL level.


If you level matched with people in the room unit this method, then they were not matched. Volt meter at the speaker terminals is the only reliable way.
 

Pennyless Audiophile

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This is not a difficult to thing, and if you are convinced that the two amplifiers sound different and you want to know why, this is what you need to do. It is a productive thing to do. Much more productive than going to a web forum and reporting what you think you heard and then asking other people who weren't there to opine on the reason or on the veracity of the claim. People do this kind of thing all the time, but it serves no genuine purpose that I know of. Do the measurements, and if you find that the two amplifiers really are different with respect to frequency response, by all means report back. Meanwhile, don't laugh out loud when people express their skepticism. They have very good reason for the skepticism.

It serves the purpose of having someone giving the excellent explanation that you have given to a new member. He came here asking for help and he received some, which is good.
If the forum is not educational, than what is the purpose?

I am here to learn stuff that I don't know and share experiences that I can't explain myself, why are you here?
 

Vince2

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Anybody with a good imagination can give an explanation for anything. To give an accurate explanation that is not just subjective but applies across situations takes work.
 
OP
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Why are you doing this particularly if you don't want to do it as accurately as possible? It's not a matter of believing your assessment, but how you're getting there being valid to begin with. I think you still have a ways to go to sharpen up the comparison. Trying to use phrases like tonality to describe what you're hearing could be off, too.

What should I do?
I came looking for objective measurement/spec that can explain the tonal balance (brightness) difference that I heard.

I sensed that some do not believe that my Krell KSA200s vs Levinson 333 AMPs produced different tonal balance on my speaker. So I was thinking to add a receiver in the comparison , perhaps it adds sanity check.
Do some of us believe that any AMP will produce the same tonal balance on a common set of speaker?
 
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Blumlein 88

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What should I do?
I came asking for objective measurement/spec that can explain the tonal balance (brightness) difference that I heard.

I sensed that some do not believe that my Krell KSA200s vs Levinson 333 AMPs produced different tonal balance on my speaker. So I was thinking to add a receiver in the comparison just for my sanity check.
Do some of us believe that any AMP will produce the same tonal balance on a common set of speaker?
Well your level matching was iffy. Most people get within 1 db and some within about 1/2 db and it sounds the same loudness. You went the extra step of using a sound level meter which is better, but using sound in a room is possibly problematic. If you would repeat with level matching of voltage levels at the speaker leads you will have removed that variable completely from what is going on.

I don't think any of us are saying your two amps did or didn't have a different sound. Only that your level matching may have made the difference if it was just slightly off. Your idea to try yet another amp (or receiver) as a sanity check is a good one, but you would do well to clean up the matching issue first. So do the comparison with better level matching and the difference may go away. If not, then using the receiver is a good idea to see if it matches the one of the others or not.

I often say frequency response is 85% of hifi. Over, and over and over what seemed different would disappear with good level matching and when it didn't almost always a measure of the frequency response would show a difference.

So you are on the right track to find out what is really going on.
 

Chrispy

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What should I do?
I came looking for objective measurement/spec that can explain the tonal balance (brightness) difference that I heard.

I sensed that some do not believe that my Krell KSA200s vs Levinson 333 AMPs produced different tonal balance on my speaker. So I was thinking to add a receiver in the comparison , perhaps it adds sanity check.
Do some of us believe that any AMP will produce the same tonal balance on a common set of speaker?

I have no idea what you mean by tonal balance for example. What's your baseline? Which one is more accurate? I'd still start with a better comparison method rather than trying to explain mere "differences".
 
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