Why isn't Topping offering some DAP products?

[EJ3]

Perhaps people (like me, who desperately wants a QUALITY DAP) are stymied by the fact that most DAP's are very expensive AND not of great quality.
So, of course, there is no market for expensive CRUD.

 

[Rottmannash]

Try the Hiby R8.

 

[YSC]

Try the Hiby R8.

it cost way more than what I would like to afford for a portable device, and though it seems that the new Hiby R6 is a newer generation than the measured R6 pro here, the R6 pro poor SIAND similar to my current ZX300 pulls me away from it.

 

[buz]

Try using your phone as a music player every day and see what happens to the battery. 1 year and you will be buying a new battery. If the battery is replaceable.
You get a new phone every year or 2 anyway? That's ok - if you're wealthier than most people or you carry on with a high-end contract.

Which totally does not happen with DAPs.

No, OG iPods didnt die after 6-9 months, either. No sir. (one of the reasons I refuse to buy Apple).

Besides, mid end phones are cheaper than mid end DAPs. Probably comparable once you add a decent dongle.

As for the actual thread: In my view (and John seems to share that), building a good DAP is similar to building a decent phone (which is hard) with a much smaller market. Definitely a much different skill set from Toppings current offering, in any case.

 

[Rottmannash]

it cost way more than what I would like to afford for a portable device, and though it seems that the new Hiby R6 is a newer generation than the measured R6 pro here, the R6 pro poor SIAND similar to my current ZX300 pulls me away from it.

it cost way more than what I would like to afford for a portable device, and though it seems that the new Hiby R6 is a newer generation than the measured R6 pro here, the R6 pro poor SIAND similar to my current ZX300 pulls me away from it.

The R5, which I own is a great DAP. Check it out-the specs are good and it has wifi, BT, SE, BAL, hi and lo gain, can be used as a desktop DAC, etc. And one can be had for less than $300 on sale.

 

[YSC]

Which totally does not happen with DAPs.

No, OG iPods didnt die after 6-9 months, either. No sir. (one of the reasons I refuse to buy Apple).

Besides, mid end phones are cheaper than mid end DAPs. Probably comparable once you add a decent dongle.

As for the actual thread: In my view (and John seems to share that), building a good DAP is similar to building a decent phone (which is hard) with a much smaller market. Definitely a much different skill set from Toppings current offering, in any case.

If purely in a SINAD perspective probably yes, but the dongle would easily break the port in the phone and normally a properly designed DAP would have a much larger battery plus more power on tap for more difficult to drive IEMs, I know in the west it probably isn't a large market but in Asia I literally saw a lot of ppl with DAPs around in transit, most the expensive ones like A&K with CIEM which are both $1000+ and mostly $2000+, probably due to cultural difference with small apartments dominate here so music is more a personal thing.

Although just my personal hope, it seems like it's worth for Topping (which is a Chinese company so Asia market should matters), not because of what, but for their DAC and Amp it really seems they gone over the meaningful improvement point for both SINAD and feature sets, so unless they wanna get some fancy marketing stuffs like special version for stepped attenuator, or some R2R, all discrete etc. for the sake of going into those groups who chase after these sort of stuffs, getting new amp or dac every half a year or so possibly would make their customers feels their product go obsolete very quick and mess up with market segmenting/naming confusion, like I suggested a friend go for the D50S and he come back with asking which version is the right D50... and ask are there something real broken so they upgrade so quickly. So diving into the DAP for another market seems logical, you know most ppl chase after some kind of new and great looking DAP with the latest 4.4mm connectors and Tidal etc.

One thing the DAP is easier to make is that it don't need a cellular data chip, the Wifi and SoC could very likely use last gen or even older ones as it don't like the phone which double as great cameras and gaming platform, it only need to be fast enough for streaming, and can be much bulkier or heavier than the normal phone.

 

[YSC]

The R5, which I own is a great DAP. Check it out-the specs are good and it has wifi, BT, SE, BAL, hi and lo gain, can be used as a desktop DAC, etc. And one can be had for less than $300 on sale.

spec wise it looked great, but unless I saw a better measurement from the company I personally would opt away from it, too many DAPs with great spec and functionality which measuress at the 80-90dB SINAD range.. just like the ZX300 which I am currently still enjoying

 

[Rottmannash]

spec wise it looked great, but unless I saw a better measurement from the company I personally would opt away from it, too many DAPs with great spec and functionality which measuress at the 80-90dB SINAD range.. just like the ZX300 which I am currently still enjoying

I suppose if one never uses streaming then something like the ZX300 would suffice.

 

[AnalogSteph]

How many DAPs were in existence 10 to 15 years ago?

Quite a few. They were all the rage when I got a Cowon iAudio G3 for Christmas in 2005 that held a whopping 512 MiB. Ran for like 25+ hours on a single AA cell. Part of why I can't take modern-day players lasting 8 hours on a 2000+ mAh lithium cell overly seriously, let alone their absurd price tags. I'd be paying around 200€ for a nice single function device, but definitely not 1000. You can only get away with that in a multifunction device that's good at several things, like a modern phone.

I understand that too. But there are issues. Operating system is first. SoC is second. Driver and the audio stack can be really difficult to do too. You are basically making a phone by this point but harder. The amount of work that needed to put in to make a perfect unit is huge.

This is why I wish someone would bring out a well-performing and well-designed player explicitly with a Rockbox-based firmware in mind. RB would still take a substantial amount of work to bring it up to a modern standard (*cough* BT stack *cough* exFAT *cough*), but it would be massively better than starting from scratch. It's got gapless playback, RG support, Meier crossfeed, parametric EQ and many other features already.

I actually thought about starting an open-source hardware project for such a project on the EEVBlog forum about 2 years ago, complete with long-term sustainability in mind (e.g. choice of battery - some sort of common user-replaceable type - or being somewhat easy to repair if need be, automotive grade ceramic capacitors, conformal coating etc.). It's not like the demands on such a device are changing on a daily basis, so you might as well get it right once and be done with it. A couple of physical buttons, a decent display, enough oomph for common audio formats (but I mean even an iPod 6G had that), SD card slot(s), etc.. I'd be quite happy with the capabilities of my Clip+ if it wasn't such a tiny thing with tiny buttons (not ideal for my Euro-Paws(R), and using the on-screen keyboard is a chore at best) and a tiny display that won't fit much of anything at a size I can read, with an aging tiny 200 mAh battery.

 

[Rottmannash]

Quite a few. They were all the rage when I got a Cowon iAudio G3 for Christmas in 2005 that held a whopping 512 MiB. Ran for like 25+ hours on a single AA cell. Part of why I can't take modern-day players lasting 8 hours on a 2000+ mAh lithium cell overly seriously, let alone their absurd price tags. I'd be paying around 200€ for a nice single function device, but definitely not 1000. You can only get away with that in a multifunction device that's good at several things, like a modern phone.


This is why I wish someone would bring out a well-performing and well-designed player explicitly with a Rockbox-based firmware in mind. RB would still take a substantial amount of work to bring it up to a modern standard (*cough* BT stack *cough* exFAT *cough*), but it would be massively better than starting from scratch. It's got gapless playback, RG support, Meier crossfeed, parametric EQ and many other features already.

I actually thought about starting an open-source hardware project for such a project on the EEVBlog forum about 2 years ago, complete with long-term sustainability in mind (e.g. choice of battery - some sort of common user-replaceable type - or being somewhat easy to repair if need be, automotive grade ceramic capacitors, conformal coating etc.). It's not like the demands on such a device are changing on a daily basis, so you might as well get it right once and be done with it. A couple of physical buttons, a decent display, enough oomph for common audio formats (but I mean even an iPod 6G had that), SD card slot(s), etc.. I'd be quite happy with the capabilities of my Clip+ if it wasn't such a tiny thing with tiny buttons (not ideal for my Euro-Paws(R), and using the on-screen keyboard is a chore at best) and a tiny display that won't fit much of anything at a size I can read, with an aging tiny 200 mAh battery.

Wow-didn't know there were DAPs around back in 2005. The first I'd ever heard of them was way back when I bought my 1st one-the AK Jr. Still sounds good for a simple DAP and the battery lasts a LONG time, probably as it has no wifi capabilities but it doesn BT but I never use it. Has a really high output for SE.

 

[EJ3]

at least here in Hong Kong and most of Asia there is quite a big market, phones are ditching the 3.5mm connector and great sounding CIEMs and IEMS are emerging here and there, in the tight space in the railways, buses and office the DAP is a very convenient way of listening, sometimes even at home as homes in Asia are mostly tiny, speakers of the hifi corner fighting with mum's TV is not a good choice.

As far as DAPs go I believe that the ASIAN market is the way to go. But I must be able to connect the DAP to my music system. I would do without the music (AND 100% DO) because the lack of a very good DAP at a reasonable price. I refuse to subject my phone to more abuse than it already gets and probably breaking of things that I cannot fix (or have readily fixed).

 

[companyja]

I would die for a proven, well-measuring DAP with a simple OS that just plays music and has things like replay-gain and EQ on it. I am using a Fiio X3 III which is a really unique and broken product, the SoC is just slow and the software is still buggy and shoddy (no ReplayGain even), but I love the form factor, the hardware buttons, USB DAC functionality, and it sounds beautiful to me but without full measurements I dunno where I'm really at. It's the only device I've seen with a dual TI burr-brown DAC setup that isn't like one of those vintage chips that everyone cirlejerks, but their new stuff (PCM5242). The biggest fault of it must be the high noise floor though - for a portable device this should be unacceptable. If I could have a fast, black background and stable version of the X3 III, that would be heaven. I really dislike the new DAP generations that are basically phones and relatively huge - what's the point if half the functionality needs a touchscreen anyway? DAPs to me are meant to be smaller, dedicated to music and optimized for hardware button control.

 

[curiouspeter]

Why not the Cayin N3Pro? It has both SS and tubes (!) in case you are bored.

 

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Why not the Cayin N3Pro? It has both SS and tubes (!) in case you are bored.

If nothing measures well pops up with reasonable pricing and 4.4mm I might go for N3 pro after my sony dies

 

[Rottmannash]

If nothing measures well pops up with reasonable pricing and 4.4mm I might go for N3 pro after my sony dies

So the R5 with 4.4 mm balance output and less than $300 doesn't fit that bill? The Cayin is $479 and is getting good reviews.

 

[YSC]

So the R5 with 4.4 mm balance output and less than $300 doesn't fit that bill? The Cayin is $479 and is getting good reviews.

The R5 have poor SINAD as in my zx300, so for that alone I won't bother to change, for Cayin yes the reviews attracted me but yet to see proper measurement from them, asking for Topping was kind of a hope that in the future when a replacement is needed I can choose Topping which seems from measurements here are always great in SINAD and not subjective rave reviews like when I bought the ZX300, yes it sounded decent but nothing similar to what I get when plugged the same UERR into my desktop Holo Spring 2+ Auralic Taurus combo.

 

[Rottmannash]

The R5 have poor SINAD as in my zx300, so for that alone I won't bother to change, for Cayin yes the reviews attracted me but yet to see proper measurement from them, asking for Topping was kind of a hope that in the future when a replacement is needed I can choose Topping which seems from measurements here are always great in SINAD and not subjective rave reviews like when I bought the ZX300, yes it sounded decent but nothing similar to what I get when plugged the same UERR into my desktop Holo Spring 2+ Auralic Taurus combo.

Where did you see poor SINAD measurements for the R5?

 

[curiouspeter]

The R5 have poor SINAD as in my zx300, so for that alone I won't bother to change, for Cayin yes the reviews attracted me but yet to see proper measurement from them, asking for Topping was kind of a hope that in the future when a replacement is needed I can choose Topping which seems from measurements here are always great in SINAD and not subjective rave reviews like when I bought the ZX300, yes it sounded decent but nothing similar to what I get when plugged the same UERR into my desktop Holo Spring 2+ Auralic Taurus combo.

What about the iBASSO DX150? I think it has good measurements and you may be able to find one for cheap. When you get bored, there are AMP cards to swap.

 

[Rottmannash]

What about the iBASSO DX150? I think it has good measurements and you may be able to find one for cheap. When you get bored, there are AMP cards to swap.

where are you guys finding measurements for these DAPs??

 

[curiouspeter]

where are you guys finding measurements for these DAPs??

Not sure if it's okay to post links here, but I think Wolf has a review on his site.