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Why is the term "warm" such a controversial subject?

Astoneroad

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I used to own an NAD 7140 for many years. Got rid of it a few years back and don't miss it. I don't think there is any compariosn between what McIntosh produces and what NAD does. I found the quality of the NAD stuff to be lacking.
My comment was really about the "warm" characteristic. Most people pin that adjective to McIntosh amps. I'm ignorant enough to really like the sound. Even though I don't see any measurements for McIntosh here, I've seen references in threads that the factory specs are very conservative and THD is actually lower than published. Maybe, maybe not... but I can listen to this combination for hours without fatigue. That wasn't my experience with the M33, which I found myself deep diving into the music instead of letting it wash over me... subjectively speaking... lol. :cool:
 

Eggs Ackley

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For what it's worth (probably not much considering the source is Stereophile) there's this:

warm The same as dark, but less tilted. A certain amount of warmth is a normal part of musical sound.

dark A warm, mellow, excessively rich quality in reproduced sound. The audible effect of a frequency response which is clockwise-tilted across the entire range, so that output diminishes with increasing frequency. Compare "light."

light Lean and tipped-up. The audible effect of a frequency response which is tilted counterclockwise. Compare "dark."

At the very least it's an attempt at a definition. Probably one that few would agree upon.
 

Pogre

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Here's my rig... McIntosh MC7300 with Sonus Faber Cremonas. I hear the "warm" thing all the time and just smile. I don't know what it means, but I love the way that it sounds. I had a NAD M33 last year, and that didn't sound "warm" at all and went back to my vintage Mc. So, whether it's psychoacoustics or psychotic genetics... I don't know. By the way... the "candles" are LEDs so don't add to the total "warmth" of the output.
View attachment 199898
Those "candles" really add a lot to the ambience tho! Makes me wanna climb into your picture and pull up a nice soft chair! Looks really cool man.
 

TheBatsEar

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Astoneroad

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Words convey information that is imprecise and may not be repeatable. Scientific measurements convey information that is precise and repeatable. People who ascribe to the second camp have no use for the methodology of the first ..... and sometimes, vice-versa. Jim
Math is the language of the universe. Words... are for those of us that spell Pi with and "e"... I love pie... lol. :cool:
 

MattHooper

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As usual: Subjective descriptions in audio, like elsewhere in life, are imprecise by nature. But not therefore false, useless or "nonsense." Most of what we describe to one another about our experiences, be it the tastes in a great meal or a vacation or a concert experience, are going to be attempts to put real world phenomena in to subjective terms. It works for the most part.

Sound mixers will refer to frequency ranges, but very often they are using quick-and-dirty subjective terms among themselves, and just as important, with clients. As I've said before: if subjective terms were fully nonsense or useless, given this is the main way artists/clients etc communicate, little of the artistic content from movies to music could be produced.

Artists or clients don't have to learn audio measurements, nor even in subjective description terms, memorize all this :


Often there are some natural terms and descriptions that tend to arise in describing sound. For instance, in my business, a very common descriptor is something like "the production sound is thin." That can come from anyone from a director, producer, a mixer, a sound editor...whatever...and though it doesn't directly pinpoint any particular frequency range per se (because the problem can be different given the tracks) it DOES express something people can generally understand. We get what you are saying, generally understand the problem we are looking for, and can find the fix.

And since subjective terms can be used differently, you can just ask someone what they mean when using the term.

So for instance with the audio term: "warmth." It's used in various ways. One, often in mixing terms, it's a significant presence in around
the 100 - 200 Hz range or thereabouts, in terms of how that affects the sound of many voices and instruments. (Though it can be lower..or even higher...depending on the specific sound one is trying to "make more warm.")

If I take a decently recorded Johnny Cash track and put a frequency dip of 7dB around, say, 150Hz, it is likely to take the "warmth" or "fullness" out of his voice. Restoring or even boosting that frequency range (not too wide Q) will bring back the "warmth" in his voice. It will have more of the recognizable human throat/chesty resonance we are familiar with - reducing these ranges will make such a voice "thin sounding" in comparison.

An important point is this: You don't even necessarily require talk of frequency ranges to both observe and communicate this phenomenon.
If I said "Johnny Cash's voice sounds thin in X case but warm in Y case" and you asked "what do you mean by that?" I could simply play you the two different tracks (or a single track, as above, but with one EQ setting sucking out the warmth region, the other slightly boosting it).
"Hear that difference? That is what I mean by saying his voice sounds "warm." I could play several other tracks with the frequency boost and cuts showing how various instruments become thicker/warmer or thinner when cutting these frequencies. But nobody has to know WHAT is causing the difference, with a specific knowledge of frequency response measurements, to note the difference and come up with subjective descriptions. Imprecise. But not useless. And lots of terms seemed to arise fairly naturally "Body," "Fullness," "Rich," "Warm" etc.

The term "warm" is also often used in the sense of timbral differences. It may be describing certain harmonic or distortion characteristics that seem to strike many people as "sounding warm" - e.g. tube amp distortion, tape distortion etc.

In a similar vein, I also think of "warmth" in the sense of timbre and harmonic complexity.

So for instance there is the "warmth" of struck or resonating wood, a certain organic woody character, vs say metal being struck or resonating.
Some systems (speakers in particular) seem to have, or convey, a sense of timbral "warmth" especially with wooden instruments, that to my ears seem more consonant with those real instruments.

There's also "warmth" in the sense of timbral/harmonic complexity.

If I compare even the highest (steel) strings plucked on a real acoustic guitar with many guitars on recordings, what I hear is a greater richness from the real thing, thicker, "warmer" in the sense of a greater richness in terms of thickness and all the harmonics and overtones. The top strings of guitars on stereo systems often sound "thinner, cooler, more icy" sounding to my ears. (In fact, I don't know if it's a bit of synesthesia, but the harmonic content of strings on most acoustic guitars including my own produce in my mind a slightly "golden" impression - the mix with the guitar body - and if acoustic guitars on a sound system never cause this same "color" to appear in my mind, then nothing ever sounds quite right to me on a system). Even a real chime struck sounds "warmer" in this sense of harmonic richness, vs what you typically get through a recording on a stereo system.

So, yes, terms like "warmth" can differ depending on who is using the term and in which situation it's being used. Sometimes it will require asking for some additional, specific explanation or description. But...often that's the best we can do in many circumstances, and it's all part of putting subjective experience in to words.
 
F

freemansteve

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In the UK, "warm" is generally used to imply reduced treble or upper mid range, and lack of extended bass - a bit unrealistic in comparison to a live concert.

It's an inoffensive term to describe an inoffensive old-fashioned sound.....

It's like comfy slippers. Or that old valve radio your grandfather had that he fell asleep to when tuned to the "light programme".
 

Astoneroad

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As usual: Subjective descriptions in audio, like elsewhere in life, are imprecise by nature. But not therefore false, useless or "nonsense." Most of what we describe to one another about our experiences, be it the tastes in a great meal or a vacation or a concert experience, are going to be attempts to put real world phenomena in to subjective terms. It works for the most part.

Sound mixers will refer to frequency ranges, but very often they are using quick-and-dirty subjective terms among themselves, and just as important, with clients. As I've said before: if subjective terms were fully nonsense or useless, given this is the main way artists/clients etc communicate, little of the artistic content from movies to music could be produced.

Artists or clients don't have to learn audio measurements, nor even in subjective description terms, memorize all this :


Often there are some natural terms and descriptions that tend to arise in describing sound. For instance, in my business, a very common descriptor is something like "the production sound is thin." That can come from anyone from a director, producer, a mixer, a sound editor...whatever...and though it doesn't directly pinpoint any particular frequency range per se (because the problem can be different given the tracks) it DOES express something people can generally understand. We get what you are saying, generally understand the problem we are looking for, and can find the fix.

And since subjective terms can be used differently, you can just ask someone what they mean when using the term.

So for instance with the audio term: "warmth." It's used in various ways. One, often in mixing terms, it's a significant presence in around
the 100 - 200 Hz range or thereabouts, in terms of how that affects the sound of many voices and instruments. (Though it can be lower..or even higher...depending on the specific sound one is trying to "make more warm.")

If I take a decently recorded Johnny Cash track and put a frequency dip of 7dB around, say, 150Hz, it is likely to take the "warmth" or "fullness" out of his voice. Restoring or even boosting that frequency range (not too wide Q) will bring back the "warmth" in his voice. It will have more of the recognizable human throat/chesty resonance we are familiar with - reducing these ranges will make such a voice "thin sounding" in comparison.

An important point is this: You don't even necessarily require talk of frequency ranges to both observe and communicate this phenomenon.
If I said "Johnny Cash's voice sounds thin in X case but warm in Y case" and you asked "what do you mean by that?" I could simply play you the two different tracks (or a single track, as above, but with one EQ setting sucking out the warmth region, the other slightly boosting it).
"Hear that difference? That is what I mean by saying his voice sounds "warm." I could play several other tracks with the frequency boost and cuts showing how various instruments become thicker/warmer or thinner when cutting these frequencies. But nobody has to know WHAT is causing the difference, with a specific knowledge of frequency response measurements, to note the difference and come up with subjective descriptions. Imprecise. But not useless. And lots of terms seemed to arise fairly naturally "Body," "Fullness," "Rich," "Warm" etc.

The term "warm" is also often used in the sense of timbral differences. It may be describing certain harmonic or distortion characteristics that seem to strike many people as "sounding warm" - e.g. tube amp distortion, tape distortion etc.

In a similar vein, I also think of "warmth" in the sense of timbre and harmonic complexity.

So for instance there is the "warmth" of struck or resonating wood, a certain organic woody character, vs say metal being struck or resonating.
Some systems (speakers in particular) seem to have, or convey, a sense of timbral "warmth" especially with wooden instruments, that to my ears seem more consonant with those real instruments.

There's also "warmth" in the sense of timbral/harmonic complexity.

If I compare even the highest (steel) strings plucked on a real acoustic guitar with many guitars on recordings, what I hear is a greater richness from the real thing, thicker, "warmer" in the sense of a greater richness in terms of thickness and all the harmonics and overtones. The top strings of guitars on stereo systems often sound "thinner, cooler, more icy" sounding to my ears. (In fact, I don't know if it's a bit of synesthesia, but the harmonic content of strings on most acoustic guitars including my own produce in my mind a slightly "golden" impression - the mix with the guitar body - and if acoustic guitars on a sound system never cause this same "color" to appear in my mind, then nothing ever sounds quite right to me on a system). Even a real chime struck sounds "warmer" in this sense of harmonic richness, vs what you typically get through a recording on a stereo system.

So, yes, terms like "warmth" can differ depending on who is using the term and in which situation it's being used. Sometimes it will require asking for some additional, specific explanation or description. But...often that's the best we can do in many circumstances, and it's all part of putting subjective experience in to words.
Wow, you just strung together a lot of "imprecise" words... beautifully. You're a poet. I know that might not be a compliment here... where words are typically seen as "... full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." but that's the way that I meant it. I feel genuinely edified. Thank you. ;)
 

MattHooper

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How about "chocolatey"?

The hoary old term "chocolatey midrange" is a classic audiophile whipping boy. My pal (a reviewer) and I often use it as a go-to joke.

BUT...that doesn't mean it isn't actually defensible as a sonic description. It's just another attempt to put certain sonic impressions in to descriptive terms. "What would any sound have to do with chocolate?" one might ask? Well...that could be asked of many of the other terms often used. What would anything in audio have to do with "boxes" ("boxy"), or mud? ("muddy") or bright light? ("brightness") and what the hell is "boomy?" and on and on.

"Chocolate" can come to mind because everyone generally knows chocolate is brown and it evokes a combination of tone - it's dark, as opposed to "bright" but it's not "black" either. In other words a sort of mid-spectrum tonal range. And "chocolate" also invokes implications of "richness." So it could be found, for instance, in a speaker that was more rolled off somewhat in the highs perhaps, not forward in the lower treble, warm in the lower mids, so emphasizing to the ear the midrange tones - which sound full and rich - highs and deep bass not being emphasized.

I cop to even having used the analogy to chocolate in an old review of the Shun Mook speakers. As I tried to convey in the review, the speakers had a very smooth, grain-free sounding, but somewhat soft presentation of upper frequencies, yet a very rich, dense midrange making voices for instance sound very full, resonant and human. The combination of "smooth and rich" is what brought to mind, somewhat jokingly, an analogy with high quality chocolate:

"And, while the Signature's highs sounded more natural and less grainy than almost any speakers I know of, tonal balance in absolute terms was a little on the dark side. Think of the aural equivalent of dark Belgium chocolate."

(
BTW, my brother, a musician not an audiophile, listened to those speakers with me and he literally said "these are like listening to chocolate."
It's one reason I included it in the review as I knew exactly what he meant since they made a similar impression on me. Such descriptions will of course never satisfy someone who only wants the precision of measurements. But as exchanging subjective impressions go, it seems as fair game as any other attempts to put experience in to analogies).
 

jae

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mhardy6647

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Your LEDs remind me that i saw a fake fire in a fireplace in a hotel once. Not sure how it's called, but it looked perfect and was awesome.
Many, many years ago, in a past life, I worked for a British startup that had me doing a lot (by my standards, at any rate) of traveling.
When I was out in the Silicon Valley (where we also used to live at one even earlier point in time... but that's actually irrelevant), I used to stay at a small hotel in Cupertino that had actual fireplaces in most if not all rooms! Not gas ones either (this was the mid-1990s)... in cool weather, there'd be a Duraflame log in the fireplace for the guest to fire up as he/she/they pleased... and which I did, at least once or twice.

I don't remember the name of the place, but it was somewhere on Stevens Creek Blvd. :)
 

Robin L

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. . . If I compare even the highest (steel) strings plucked on a real acoustic guitar with many guitars on recordings, what I hear is a greater richness from the real thing, thicker, "warmer" in the sense of a greater richness in terms of thickness and all the harmonics and overtones. The top strings of guitars on stereo systems often sound "thinner, cooler, more icy" sounding to my ears. (In fact, I don't know if it's a bit of synesthesia, but the harmonic content of strings on most acoustic guitars including my own produce in my mind a slightly "golden" impression - the mix with the guitar body - and if acoustic guitars on a sound system never cause this same "color" to appear in my mind, then nothing ever sounds quite right to me on a system). . .
I've got a Martin DRS2 guitar back in 2017. Don't think that specific model is in production, being replaced by something very similar but $200 more expensive. It's a dreadnought designed for plug & play at open mics and suchlike, something similar in sound to the pricier Martin Dreadnoughts, the top built a bit heavier than the D-28s and D-18s. It's a little harder to destroy, and at $800 for guitar and case, a little less heartbreaking to have stolen. I probably spend more time playing my guitar now than playing recorded music. I think there's something that happens sonically in having a guitar in one's lap, probably bone conduction emphasizing the lower registers for the player.

I find a delicacy in the upper registers of an unamplified acoustic guitar that never seems to come across in a recording, though unamplified acoustic guitar happens to be something comparatively easy to record. No matter how good the microphone, it ultimately lack some of the sonic complexity of the real thing. And playing the instrument gives off a lot more richness to the player than the audience.

I managed to record my favorite performer of anything plucked, fretted and strummed, Hopkinson Smith. He was performing French Baroque music on a 31 string, 17 course French Baroque Lute in a room that could seat 500 max, with a lighting system on dimmer switches. I was using antique [1960 gear in 1990] tube microphones and tube preamplification. The buzz/hum of the dimmer switch was nearly as loud as the music. That taught me a very important lesson, that it's really important to use gear that will consistantly work in less than ideal conditions, and it's better to go in with good gear that bulletproof than better sounding gear that runs the risk of failing.

It was also interesting in that the one recording of Hopkinson Smith that I have admired and listened to the most had a very beautiful sonic character, being relatively closed mic-ed with omnis in a reverberant cathedral. Those microphones clearly had to be within three feet of ""Hoppy" though they give the impression of a relatively big instrumental sound in a big place, in spite of the lack of volume from the instrument---low enough that the self-noise of the [B & K, powered with 120 volts and producing a line-level signal to the recorder, meaning no microphone preamp] microphones is audible, though barely. Point being, this is an example of a recording that in many ways is better than the real thing. The recording doesn't exactly falsify the sound, but nobody sitting any further back from Maestro Smith than about 9 feet is going to hear much of anything.
 
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VMAT4

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That is when dark, moist and warm...:p
Does the sound of my system remind me of a brownie fresh out of the oven? No! But both sound good.
 

pablolie

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"Warm" can mean over-emphasis of certain harmonics or simply the fact that turning on your amp will lower your heating bill in the winter... :) Doesn't really provide an accurate description. Measure the thing and show me, then I can make up my own mind about its sound character.
 

Chr1

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I've got a Martin DRS2 guitar back in 2017. Don't think that specific model is in production, being replaced by something very similar but $200 more expensive. It's a dreadnought designed for plug & play at open mics and suchlike, something similar in sound to the pricier Martin Dreadnoughts, the top built a bit heavier than the D-28s and D-18s. It's a little harder to destroy, and at $800 for guitar and case, a little less heartbreaking to have stolen. I probably spend more time playing my guitar now than playing recorded music. I think there's something that happens sonically in having a guitar in one's lap, probably bone conduction emphasizing the lower registers for the player.

I find a delicacy in the upper registers of an unamplified acoustic guitar that never seems to come across in a recording, though unamplified acoustic guitar happens to be something comparatively easy to record. No matter how good the microphone, it ultimately lack some of the sonic complexity of the real thing. And playing the instrument gives off a lot more richness to the player than the audience.

I managed to record my favorite performer of anything plucked, fretted and strummed, Hopkinson Smith. He was performing French Baroque music on a 31 string, 17 course French Baroque Lute in a room that could seat 500 max, with a lighting system on dimmer switches. I was using antique [1960 gear in 1990] tube microphones and tube preamplification. The buzz/hum of the dimmer switch was nearly as loud as the music. That taught me a very important lesson, that it's really important to use gear that will consistantly work in less than ideal conditions, and it's better to go in with good gear that bulletproof than better sounding gear that runs the risk of failing.

It was also interesting in that the one recording of Hopkinson Smith that I have admired and listened to the most had a very beautiful sonic character, being relatively closed mic-ed with omnis in a reverberant cathedral. Those microphones clearly had to be within three feet of ""Hoppy" though they give the impression of a relatively big instrumental sound in a big place, in spite of the lack of volume from the instrument---low enough that the self-noise of the [B & K, powered with 120 volts and producing a line-level signal to the recorder, meaning no microphone preamp] microphones is audible, though barely. Point being, this is an example of a recording that in many ways is better than the real thing. The recording doesn't exactly falsify the sound, but nobody sitting any further back from Maestro Smith than about 9 feet is going to hear much of anything.
I believe that David Manley's highly regarded valve microphones colour the sound in this way too...
Most likely in the same way that my VTL amplifier does. I, like many happen to like this slight addition of euphonic "warmth" a lot.
 
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