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Why is the term "warm" such a controversial subject?

pseudoid

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I didn't say that horse radish is a metaphor.
I hereby christen the word "horseradish" as a figure of speech in which this expression is used to refer to something ["warm"? sounding] that it does NOT literally denote in order to suggest a similarity.:eek:
Oh wait! The italics in above definition is what a metaphor is supposed to be.

"Warm" is a human sensory input; using touch.
"Horseradish" is a human sensory input; using taste.
"Horseradish" can also be a human sensory input; using sight, and possibly even using smell.
"Horseradish" seems more appropriately descriptive metaphor for hearing than 'warm', which you can't see, taste or smell.

What other metaphors could be more controversial than "warm"? The inclusive-sound? The equitable-sound? The diversified-sound?:facepalm:
 

Axo1989

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Neutral has a conventionally accepted meaning that corresponds to something empirical, warm is in the sensory organs of the beholder. This is old ground, we don't need another essay.
I don't really follow this distinction, unless we are rejecting figurative language altogether, I don't think warm has special status that warrants exclusion from the audio (or any) lexicon.

In general use 'warm' has four meanings: comfortable temperature (opposite of 'cool'); enthusiasm/affection (a 'warm greeting'); colour tonality (red/orange tones); and fresh/strong/proximate (getting warmer while following a trail of clues). We invoke the sense of touch or sight respectively for two of those meanings, but refer to emotions for another and finally to mind/thinking for the final meaning. Insisting that warm refers to only one of those meanings would be daft. But here we are.

For audio we have two common meanings: warm tonality (the audio equivalent of colour tonality) and analog warmth (which I haven't experienced). As many have described upthread, warm tonality (like the visual counterpart) is straightforward to quantify (it's just frequency and relative levels). But if the aim is to be confused, certainly look for as many interpretations as you can, then throw up your hands in mock resignation, like the OP.

"you can rephrase anything to be" X2...I don't accept your premise, it is entirely too post-modern.
I'm pretty sure @MattHooper was saying "don't do that".

The OP's argument (not yours, I should clarify) is conflating too many threads: confusion about terminology (and resisting any clarification of same), argument about preference (should we like warm?), and argument about methods (hardware or EQ?). Add ignorance or recording/mixing/production (no 'warm slider' etc). It's a solid recipe for confusion. If that isn't the preferred state, then separate and examine the assumptions more carefully, and don't resist actual information.
 

phoenixdogfan

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I stand by what I've said here. As a thought experiment, try reading a speaker review by TAS and ask yourself if you've learned anything about how it would with any degree of precision sound to you. If you think you do, go have a listen and be shocked at how divergent that experience is from your review inspired preconception.
 

Axo1989

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I stand by what I've said here. As a thought experiment, try reading a speaker review by TAS and ask yourself if you've learned anything about how it would with any degree of precision sound to you. If you think you do, go have a listen and be shocked at how divergent that experience is from your review inspired preconception.
Sure, but why would I do that and how is it cogent? The question was about 'warm' which is unproblematic in context. Introducing the full gamut of chocolate-coated adjectives is just wading into a school of red herrings. We can do better than whataboutism, surely.
 

theREALdotnet

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Sure, but why would I do that and how is it cogent? The question was about 'warm' which is unproblematic in context. Introducing the full gamut of chocolate-coated adjectives is just wading into a school of red herrings. We can do better than whataboutism, surely.

We can do better than hand-waving, too. So why don’t you put up and provide the definition of “warm” as it pertains to sound? I’ll gladly add it to my dictionary, Here’s what I’ve got so far:

1650338595587.png
 

Axo1989

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We can do better than hand-waving, too. So why don’t you put up and provide the definition of “warm” as it pertains to sound? I’ll gladly add it to my dictionary, Here’s what I’ve got so far:

View attachment 200892
Read the thread.

It's in my first post on p.3, my first post on this page (which also describes the general use dictionary meanings you copied) numerous posts in-between and numerous posts by others.
 
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theREALdotnet

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Read the thread.
More hand-waving, as I thought. If anyone who thinks this is clear cut would be man enough to offer a definition then we could have a quick round of yays or nays, and put the subject to bed.
 

Axo1989

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More hand-waving, as I thought. If anyone who thinks this is clear cut would be man enough to offer a definition then we could have a quick round of yays or nays, and put the subject to bed.
Not sure what gender has to do with it. Instead of insulting me, read the posts I referred to and discuss (or not). If you won't first read what I've already written, and follow the discussion generally, I'm really not obliged to prepare CliffsNotes for you.
 

MattHooper

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I stand by what I've said here. As a thought experiment, try reading a speaker review by TAS and ask yourself if you've learned anything about how it would with any degree of precision sound to you. If you think you do, go have a listen and be shocked at how divergent that experience is from your review inspired preconception.

Funny you should mention that.

I've found numerous reviews in TAS describe very well what I've heard from the gear under review.

For instance, this review of the Joseph Audio Pulsar is just bang on, putting in to words the salient characteristics that attracted me to the speakers:


"The first thing I noticed about the Pulsars was their midrange purity and lack of grain."

That is exactly the first thing that struck me when I auditioned those speakers! I've mentioned it before about my own Joseph Audio Perspective speakers too, numerous times.

"The Pulsar’s upper frequencies walk the fine line between dark and light. This tweeter has a sweet character that portrays upper frequencies in a very natural and relaxing way. First violins and piccolos had sparkle and shimmer without sounding forward or metallic."

Couldn't have said it better myself!

"Of all the Pulsar’s sonic attributes, the one that impressed me the most was the high level of discernability. What I mean by discernability is, how easy is it to listen into the mix and pick out exactly what parts you want to concentrate on? The higher the level of discernability, the easier it is to do this. The Pulsars made it easy to recognize the essential banjoness of a banjo on Paul Curreri’s “Once Up Upon a Rooftop” [California Tin Angel Records]. Even when a harmonica is added to the mix, it’s easy to tell where the banjo stops and the harmonica starts."

It's like the guy is reading my mind. That is exactly what jumped out to me about the Pulsars (and my Joseph Perspectives)...the way they seemed so effortlessly portray the distinct timbre of instruments. I remember when I played a Chet Baker track I'd used to audition a ton of speakers before the Pulsars/Perspectives: a mono track that had several instruments "lined up" in mono - e.g. guitar, bass, drums, voice, trumpet etc. I'd never heard the timbre of the instruments so distinct, so easily effortless to distinguish. Even "piled up in the middle in mono" it was just effortless to pick out each instrument. This aspect continually blew me away on those speakers which is one reason I ended up buying the Joseph Perspectives.

Anyway, I'd agree with virtually everything in the review, like I could have written it myself. If I hadn't heard the Pulsars before the review, I might well have sought them out given the reviewer described characteristics I really care about and sought after in a speaker.

And actually Joseph Audio says on his website: "Live, unamplified music has unmistakable presence and clarity. Yet, at the same time it also sounds relaxed and warm."

That is exactly the "gestalt" I get from live unamplified music. Captures it beautifully. This tells me it's a manufacturer that "hears things like I do, cares what I care about." And that is just what I hear from his speakers in my room. (Which, as I've mentioned before, I heard before I knew anything about the brand).

I've also found Jonathan Valin to be quite perceptive when describing speakers I'm familiar with as well. Even Michael Fremer. If that goes down like cod liver oil around here..sorry...but you brought it up. Cheers. :)
 
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theREALdotnet

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Not sure what gender has to do with it. Instead of insulting me, read the posts I referred to and discuss (or not). If you won't first read what I've already written, and follow the discussion generally, I'm really not obliged to prepare CliffsNotes for you.

Why are you being so literal all of a sudden? “Man enough” is a metaphor that only has meaning in context! Every recording engineer knows what it means!

Anyway, up here (page 12) you say that “warm”, as it pertains to sound, means either “warm tonality” or ”analog warmth”. A circular definition isn’t really a definition, is it. But then you say is has something to do with frequency and relative levels. Now we’re getting somewhere.

On page three you don’t talk about the definition of “warm” at all, only abuse those asking for it. But you do quote a picture by @jae showing that “warmth” in sound correlates with increased volume between about 60Hz and 600Hz. Can I assume that this is your definition of “warm”, with respect to sound?

Is everybody ok with the definition of “warm” as a tonality change that emphasises the range between 60Hz and 600Hz?
 

ahofer

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Is everybody ok with the definition of “warm” as a tonality change that emphasises the range between 60Hz and 600Hz?
I think that's the problem, lots of people seem to use the term "warm" to mean something other than specifically this, which is, in fact, empirical.*

If we decide these terms mean something measurable or testable, and the majority of users adopt the convention, then they can become more useful. But, in audio reviewer terms, they seem to be used so loosely as to become meaningless. Perhaps studio technicians have agreed on the meanings, but that's a far cry from the high end audio ecosystem agreeing on them.



*for clarity, I am using 'empirical' as: "capable of being verified or disproven by experiment", not simply "originating in observation or experience" as suggested elsewhere.
 

puppet

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Some of the descriptors in that glossary are specific with regard to loudspeaker responses and can be correlated with a measurement. Other terms, like "warm" try to invoke a general quality to what is produced/heard and in some cases why that is the case. If we accept "warm" to mean something as basically a pleasant experience then we can use that term to describe .. a soft chair, a drink with good friends or a sound system .. one that sounds smooth with pleasing (even order) harmonic content.
 
OP
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coonmanx

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Yeah, there is the warmth of tube audio amps. And that seems to be all about the even order harmonic distortion that people find pleasing to the ear. But when the term is used to apply to solid state amps, then it seems that maybe it is used to describe the emphasis in the mid-bass region. And that is two distinct uses of the same word to describe different things.

Now if a review starts talking about piccolos and violins, then I have nothing to say about that since I don't listen to piccolos or violins on my systems. That just sounds like a psychobabble sales pitch to me. I know good audio and feel like there are much better ways to describe speakers by using objective terms. I don't want warm speakers. I don't want bright speakers either. I want speakers that can accurately reproduce the sound of the source. I also want speakers that can sound good off axis with good dispersion and imaging.
 

Geert

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"The first thing I noticed about the Pulsars was their midrange purity and lack of grain."

Why is the term 'grain' not a more controversial subject?

I mean, what does it refer to? Golden ears hearing the LSB steps of a digital signal? Seeds spilling out of the bass reflex port?
 

Pogre

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"The Pulsar’s upper frequencies walk the fine line between dark and light.
What on earth does that mean? "The fine line between dark and light"? Does he mean neutral? Slightly shady..?
This tweeter has a sweet character that portrays upper frequencies in a very natural and relaxing way.
What is a sweet character? What does that even mean?
 

Robin L

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What on earth does that mean? "The fine line between dark and light"? Does he mean neutral? Slightly shady..?

What is a sweet character? What does that even mean?
Get out yer insulin.
 

MattHooper

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Yeah, there is the warmth of tube audio amps. And that seems to be all about the even order harmonic distortion that people find pleasing to the ear. But when the term is used to apply to solid state amps, then it seems that maybe it is used to describe the emphasis in the mid-bass region. And that is two distinct uses of the same word to describe different things.

As has been discussed, when someone uses the term "warm" in audio it will depend on the context - what specifically they are apprehending as "warm." There's the addition of thickening harmonics or distortion in some cases, or there is the increase in low midrange frequencies (or upper bass), and even in the latter there is going to be some specific technical variation - the frequencies you push to make a female voice "warmer" are going to be different from making a Tuba "warmer." If you are working in a specific context you may automatically know what someone means by "warm," but if you are unfamiliar with a certain context it makes sense to ask ("what do you mean by 'dry martini..or dry humor?').

But since you raise the "warmth" of tube amplification, I happen to have been, yet again, just experiencing that. (As usual, in this context, this is a for-sake-of-argument example, putting aside for the moment the fact tube amps don't necessarily always have a 'tube amp sound' and ideally we want to untangle sighted bias). But simply as one sense in which I am looking for "warmth" in sound:

Think of the difference between "warm flesh and blood" and "cold, hard metal." (E.g. robot vs a person).

Sonically, human voices have this "warmth," this "organic signature," in that our voices have the timbral/detail characteristics of being produced by the the wet damped organic fleshy material (vocal chords, throat, mouth, tongue, chest resonance, etc). And emanating from a person, in this sense a human voice has the sense of "density" and "body" and acoustic projection from that source, of an actual person projecting their voice from a point in a room.

In contrast what I find in the majority of vocal tracks reproduced through hi-fi systems, is a deficit in almost all those characteristics. The voices tend to often sound tipped up in the high end leading to sibilance that is harder, sharper, more electronic sounding. The phasey sonic images sound incorporeal, transparent, ghostly, like I can wave my hand through it. Timbrally voices sound more like produced by pieces of technology than human flesh. Also, to my mind's eye, voices are often the "wrong timbral color" (either a sort of blanched of tone, or too dark, rarely the 'bang on warm' tone I get closing my eyes listening to real voices). So the reproduced voices are often missing those elements that combine where a voice sounds "warm and human."

I've found that my tube amps/tube preamp can nudge the sound slightly in almost all the directions that make voices sound "warmer and more human."

For instance, I was running my CJ tube preamp through my Benchmark LA4 preamp which allowed me to level match between them, and then switch instantly between the Benchmark LA4 solid state preamp going directly to my amps, vs having the signal run through the CJ tube amp.
The LA4 consistently sounded more transparent, slightly more revealing of sonic details (e.g. even the subtlest reverbs). But nothing was ever "the right timbral color" to my ears, so nothing ever sounded natural. Whereas running the signal through the CJ preamp seemed to "flesh out" the sound, vocal sibilance seemed to merge better in to the rest of the voice, sounding less artificially detached, the voices took on a bit more body and density and softness, and crucially the "timbral color" seemed to lighten to what sounded "more life-like" and present to my ears.

The same went for tracks which had hand claps. Through the LA4 preamp all the sound was just super clear and vivid, yet hand claps just didn't sound right - a bit too sharp on the leading edge, and then sort of "black and white" or electronic in tone. When I lightly clapped my own hands the difference between real flesh clapping and the clacker-sounding hand claps through the speakers was distinct. Whereas when I had the tube preamp in the chain, the tone lightened to sounding more "texturally present" claps weren't artificially hardened, they filled out with a bit more density and body, and now when I clapped my own hands the timbral signature between my claps and the ones coming through the speakers felt almost bang on. Like I could have been one of the audience clapping. So now hands sounded "warmer, more human."

Also, everything from brass instruments to sax to acoustic guitars also had more of the type of timbral warmth I hear in real acoustic instruments.

That kind of stuff really turns my crank, and I find when I get that nudge to "timbral believability" in my own perception, I simply enjoy the sound more. And as I've said one of the general distinctions I hear between real sounds and reproduced is a sense of timbral "warmth" where the reproduced versions seem stripped of the richness of tone and harmonics.

*(starts zig-zagging to duck tomatoes...)
 

pseudoid

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Why is the term 'grain' not a more controversial subject?
I can relate to 'graininess' of a sound better than it's warmth.
Not that I have ever gargled with a mixture of water + sand but it 'sounds' pretty 'harsh'.:oops:
 

MattHooper

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What on earth does that mean?

Pretty much as it says. An emphasis in high frequencies (whether it be frequency response of added grain from some form of distortion) can make high frequencies sound too bright, too "lit up," blanching the sound. If they are too subdued or rolled off, the sound can lack a sense of "air" and "sparkle" and sound a bit too timbrally "dark" (rolled off).

So yes, it is one way of saying "neutral," but a way that simultaneously suggests what "non-neutral" sounds like at the same time.
What is a sweet character? What does that even mean?

The high frequencies are smooth and clean, lacking any sense of coarseness, allowing all manner of high end transients, e.g. guitar picks on strings, chimes, cymbals, high ranges of instruments, etc, to sound pure and full of timbral richness and complexity, while being smooth and easy on the ears. "Rich and relaxed" might be the appropriate phrase.

Remember, these are not attempts at technical definitions or descriptions. These are attempts to put the SUBJECTIVE character, the sonic experience, in to words. Just like many ways humans communicate their experiences. If you aren't interested in that, and insist only on much more precise technical terms, it will never appeal or make sense to you. Which is fine.
 
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