Why is Steaming Digital Music From Computer to DAC Bad?

[12Many]

Hi everyone. New member here. I have been reading this site alot and I love it. I believe in measurements and this site actually provides hard data with reasonable input and conclusions. I am planning out some audio upgrades and in the future I want to use a computer to steam digital audio (Amazon HD) from a USB port to a DAC. I currently use this Amazon HD and a wireless keyboard so I can sit on the couch and control the songs, or stream old/new music concerts over the computer on my TV and get great sound. Right now I just run it through my receiver/ with old Sonus Faber speakers, but I am getting close to getting the Benchmark DAC3, their amp (maybe), and new speakers.

Here is my question. Why do so many people and sales people say streaming from a PC is so bad. I have a degree and EE and as I see it, the data from the web is likely error checked and accurate and it is retimed by the network cards, USB ports in the computer and DAC. With the error correction and retiming, I don't understand why people say that digital data from a computer is inferior to a dedicated expensive streamer. I don't experience errors with other data over the internet. Data over an USB port is not riddled with errors. Is this just audiophiles promoting the most expensive gear or are there real technical difference in the digital data from a computer USB port computer to a $$$ streamer that can be measured. Any test/reviews on this? Thank you !!

 

[gfx_1]

Streaming from computer to DAC isn´t bad, streamers are also computers.

The analog out from PC main boards is usually not the best, the owner of this site (Amir) tested an average Dell but the digital outs are fine sometimes the OS messes with it a bit like downsampling everything to 44.1 even if the source is 48 kHz.

I prefer the optical out because that has no change of introducing unwanted noise but the digital coax out on the hifiberry clone on a raspberry pi sounds the same as the optical output.

If you want an affordable streamer the raspberry pi can do it all. There are one stop solutions for it but the basic raspbian iso can get most software out of the repository (apt) or if slightly more exotic from github.

But it looks like you have an already working setup, the only difference will be the DAC in the receiver versus the one in the Benchmark which probably measures better but hearing the difference is another thing.

 

[12Many]

Streaming from computer to DAC isn´t bad, streamers are also computers.

The analog out from PC main boards is usually not the best, the owner of this site (Amir) tested an average Dell but the digital outs are fine sometimes the OS messes with it a bit like downsampling everything to 44.1 even if the source is 48 kHz.

I prefer the optical out because that has no change of introducing unwanted noise but the digital coax out on the hifiberry clone on a raspberry pi sounds the same as the optical output.

If you want an affordable streamer the raspberry pi can do it all. There are one stop solutions for it but the basic raspbian iso can get most software out of the repository (apt) or if slightly more exotic from github.

But it looks like you have an already working setup, the only difference will be the DAC in the receiver versus the one in the Benchmark which probably measures better but hearing the difference is another thing.

Thanks. That is helpful. It would be interesting to have Amirm test a computer USB output verses an expensive streamer USB output. The data Arirm creates is so helpful.

 

[ElNino]

Thanks. That is helpful. It would be interesting to have Amirm test a computer USB output verses an expensive streamer USB output. The data Arirm creates is so helpful.

You might be interested in this thread: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...nding-the-windows-audio-quality-debate.19438/

There is so much myth floating around on this point. It is kind of frustrating that there's no way to bypass "CAudioLimiter" and get a totally clean bitstream out to a DAC using Windows, unless you use ASIO or digitally lower the volume a little, but other than that, there's nothing at all wrong with a computer source.

 

[Beershaun]

I think a computer is just fine using USB output. I think it's ridiculous that audio companies are charging insane amounts of money for streaming endpoints or Audio specific media server hardware. Avoid that at all cost. That said I do find there are differences in volume levels that my audio system puts out depending on the streaming endpoint. I don't know why that is but it's very apparent. My specific example is streaming music to my receivers from a FireTV via HDMI vs directly streaming the same music to the receiver via its own dedicated network connection. So maybe just stay away from using HDMI and streaming media sticks and you are good.

If you want to test your USB output yourself to see if there is anything different, I would buy a raspberry pi 4 and install Moode Audio on it and plug it in to your DAC. Then do a side by side to see if the volume levels are any different.

 

[JayGilb]

Here is my question. Why do so many people and sales people say streaming from a PC is so bad.

Many PCs have a noisy power supply and this can cause ground loop problems when data is streamed via USB. There's a burgeoning market dedicated to "fixing" the problem. That's quite a common problem/question here on ASR.

A dedicated streamer can solve the noise problem, but the streaming data has no better fidelity than a PC.

 

[Taddpole]

"Why do so many people and sales people say streaming from a PC is so bad."

Because they want to sell you something

 

[dshreter]

"Why do so many people and sales people say streaming from a PC is so bad."

Because they want to sell you something

Bingo, audio salespeople don't sell computers.

But to be fair it is a lot easier to get the right digital signal out of a bluesound node than it is a PC. PCs are multitasking devices supporting multiple simultaneous audio streams, and also designed to handle video sources. As a result, it can take some intentional effort to make it work optimally. Resampling everything to 48 kHz is how PCs operate by default, which isn't ideal if listening to 44.1 kHz audio streams which are the most common.

All that said, you can extract the same quality digital audio from either with the right effort.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

Been streaming out of my two windows boxes via usb since 2014. Completely trouble free. The Octo 8 Pro uses an Asio driver, so also does Dephonica, so it's covered. A decent PC can be had for as little as $50 at a pawn shop. JRiver is $60 and ASIO4All is freeware. Why pay more?

 

[Jimbob54]

"Here is my question. Why do so many people and sales people say streaming from a PC is so bad"

There's a very good reason why sales people especially hate the idea that a device everyone already has in their home can be connected to a relatively cheap device and deliver transparent audio.

Edit - beaten to it.

 

[Robin L]

Steaming digital music is never a good idea. They prefer dry climates and porous soil.

First off, having files on a computer, exporting via usb to a decent DAC, pretty much extracts the maximum fidelity that we can reliably hear from a digital source. On the other hand, my tiny Fiio M3K produces a decent variable line-level output to my amplifier. Set the amp for 0db, set level with the DAP, there's buttons on the M3K. Sound quality is pretty much the same, though the APO equalizer bass boost for the headphones isn't in play if speaker playback is from the DAP. If I want or need to hear something via the computer, I can mute/pause the DAP and switch the amp to the Topping E/L30 that the computer is attached to. There's no real audio downside to "computer audio" but having a "sever"---and a DAP [Digital Audio Player] can be a fully functional server that also happens to have a portable form factor---can be better for playing music and using the computer at the same time.

 

[dasdoing]

there's no way to bypass "CAudioLimiter" and get a totally clean bitstream

it prevents clipping. if there are any overs it will be cleaner than without it

 

[ElNino]

it prevents clipping. if there are any overs it will be cleaner than without it

Depends what you mean by "overs". It does nothing for inter-sample x-overs, which occur in the DAC's reconstruction filter. For music played directly at the correct sample rate, with no equalization, CAudioLimiter almost always does more harm than good given how hot mixes are mastered these days.

IMHO there should be a way to disable it without having to rely on ASIO. Maybe in Windows 12.

 

[dasdoing]

Depends what you mean by "overs". It does nothing for inter-sample x-overs, which occur in the DAC's reconstruction filter. For music played directly at the correct sample rate, with no equalization, CAudioLimiter almost always does more harm than good given how hot mixes are mastered these days.

IMHO there should be a way to disable it without having to rely on ASIO. Maybe in Windows 12.

it seams it acts at -0.14dBFS. normaly there should be no signal reaching this. but yes, nowadays it happens all the time. now it will be a few fast transients. probably some of the snare hits most of the time. now they wont stop at 0dBFS, so it is better to limit them. I actualy doubt you will hear a diference with either with most material. it's just a a few ms transient.

now if you have some stupidly clipped source, it is easy to verify that you better have the windows limiter https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ftware-volume-control.5922/page-2#post-172865

 

[dasdoing]

I actualy doubt you will hear a diference with either with most material

this could be abx-ed easily. I don't care enough to produce the files.

 

[SimpleTheater]

I think it's ridiculous that audio companies are charging insane amounts of money for streaming endpoints or Audio specific media server hardware. Avoid that at all cost.

Beershaun is right, too many audio companies are selling snake oil that are no better than your computer. Just make sure you don’t skimp on the USB cable to avoid jitter. I find the $799 AudioQuest Diamond USB very satisfying, but it’s amazing transparency is at the expense of color in the midrange and some low end weight.

 

[DanielT]

Two computers (Mobile phone. Tablet, Lap Top, no matter what computer). One is plugged into an amplifier. With the other device, you can change songs when using Spotify. Smooth, one of the best features of Spotify.

Lack of extra computer, here are some good combined DAC + streamers:
Think they needs, go on Linux, if interested check with those who have experience and knowledge about Linux.

Allo Boss2 Review (Stereo Streamer)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Allo Boss2 Ethernet (and wifi) streamer/player. It was sent to me by the company for testing and costs US $149 by itself. My tested configuration included the Nirvana power supply which brings the cost up to US $209. I must say, I am very...

audiosciencereview.com

Audiophonics RASPDAC MINI LCD KIT Review (Streamer)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Audiophonics RASPDAC MINI LCD KIT Streamer. It is on kind loan from a member and costs 165,83 € or US $193 (excluding Raspberry Pi and power supply). As the name indicates, this is a streamer built on the popular Raspberry Pi small computer...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[Hapo]

...thank you for posting this thread...

...I have an old $1000 computer that needs work that is equipped with the "Creative Lab Sound Blaster" audio card that I could probably not distingquish form the Modi 3+ this $200 Chromebook is feeding...

...I was looking for a cheap streaming device to use instead of a computer to receive internet radio and Amazon Unlimited...

...I bought this to see if I can hook it up to my wifi and stream to an Aiyima 07 amp and some old Energy 2.1e's...it looks like I can plug a CD player into it as well...like a little preamp...if it works I migh even buy some of those Elac Debut Refence DBR62 and put the Energy 2.1e's away agian...it would replace a little cheap Sony CD player/radio that is doing a pretty good job as pre amp and tuner...I have CD changer feeding into it...I tried it's USB in but it could not see the Chromebook...

...I do not know if the Grace Link Internet Radio Tuner relevent enough to send in to amirm......is this a thread jack yet...???...

Amazon.com: Grace Link Internet Radio Tuner and Streaming Music Player with Chromecast Built-in: Stream Hi-Fi Music to Your Stereo System : Electronics

Amazon.com: Grace Link Internet Radio Tuner and Streaming Music Player with Chromecast Built-in: Stream Hi-Fi Music to Your Stereo System : Electronics

www.amazon.com

 

[dezza]

...thank you for posting this thread...

...I have an old $1000 computer that needs work that is equipped with the "Creative Lab Sound Blaster" audio card that I could probably not distingquish form the Modi 3+ this $200 Chromebook is feeding...

...I was looking for a cheap streaming device to use instead of a computer to receive internet radio and Amazon Unlimited...

...I bought this to see if I can hook it up to my wifi and stream to an Aiyima 07 amp and some old Energy 2.1e's...it looks like I can plug a CD player into it as well...like a little preamp...if it works I migh even buy some of those Elac Debut Refence DBR62 and put the Energy 2.1e's away agian...it would replace a little cheap Sony CD player/radio that is doing a pretty good job as pre amp and tuner...I have CD changer feeding into it...I tried it's USB in but it could not see the Chromebook...

...I do not know if the Grace Link Internet Radio Tuner relevent enough to send in to amirm......is this a thread jack yet...???...

Amazon.com: Grace Link Internet Radio Tuner and Streaming Music Player with Chromecast Built-in: Stream Hi-Fi Music to Your Stereo System : Electronics

Amazon.com: Grace Link Internet Radio Tuner and Streaming Music Player with Chromecast Built-in: Stream Hi-Fi Music to Your Stereo System : Electronics

www.amazon.com

This looks Interesting.
The digital out is a bonus.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

Speaking of streaming digital music from a computer, Archimago reviews a $250 fanless Windows box that seems capable of being a Room endpoint and running streaming video. Sells on Amazon, and Ali Express. The performance of its Celeron J4125 processor exceeds an Intel I7-5500U on PassMark.

MeLE Quieter2Q (8GB DDR4, 128GB eMMC, Celeron J4125) Mini PC: An inexpensive, silent, multichannel Roon Endpoint. On Paul McGowan (PS Audio): "digital audio is soooo noisy", and "computers are the worst". [+ Windows 11 Update]

A blog for audiophiles about more objective topics. Measurements of audio gear. Reasonable, realistic, no snakeoil assessment of sound, and equipment.

archimago.blogspot.com