Why Is My Speaker Imaging Rubbish?

[thedantestyle]

So I made another thread a few days ago asking about whether I should get studio monitors or hifi speakers for good imaging sitting at my desk.

I currently own a couple of Wharfedale evo 4.2 speakers (3-way) - I believed - and many suggested these speakers would be no good for nearfield listening.

So today I went to a hifi store to test out some new speakers - I had him set them all up the same distance I'd be listening - they sounded pretty great - Had amazing imaging - and clearly defined center image for vocals etc.

Anyway, before I decided to purchase a set - I asked him to set up my speakers in the same position (he happened to have evo 4.2 in store) Just so I'd be sure the new speakers imaged better.... Lo and behold my speakers were AMAZING! Even better imaging nearfield than the ones I was going to buy.

So admittedly my desk is not the same as listening to speakers on floor stands (as they were in store) - So I pulled my speakers to the end of the desk to eliminate reflections from the monitor and desk - Ive attached a photo - but the image didn't improve one little bit. I've tried different toe-in angles as well.

The store owner suggested it could be my amp - but I suspect it's something in my setup/reflections going on.... What would you suggest I do next to get my imaging happening properly? Could it really be my amp? I'm using an onkyo tx-sr602 receiver which admittedly isn't amazing, but would it really kill my imaging? I could drive to the store with my amp but it's almost 2 hours drive away.

 

[kongwee]

Sitting close to the speaker? For me the triangle relationship is not there. You can push the speaker toward the screen and see you can get the imaging back. Of course tonality will suffer.

 

[Newman]

Proximity to one side wall?

 

[ZolaIII]

Looking at the Evo 4.4 measurements it seems that they have a large drop in 4 KHz area with horizontal angle of 10~15° which goes away when it's 30°.
Either turn them directly towards your listening position or under bigger angle (best use protractor).
Try to put the towel under each if it helps consider getting a desk stands for them. Use room (phase) correction.
Best regards and have a nice time.

 

[Eetu]

Couple of thoughts:
1) make sure the tweeters are at ear height
2) decouple the speakers from the desk
3) use an equilateral triangle setup, for example 1m between speakers, 1m from each speaker to your listening position
4) if you have a wall close behind your listening position change the setup or put absorption panels there
5) optimally the speakers should be symmetrically placed so that the side walls are of equal distance away, if the other side wall is close consider treating it with absorption
6) use digital room correction

 

[AnalogSteph]

I concur with (1), which generally involves desk stands (of sorts).

Also, never assume you are beyond a rookie mistake such as having one speaker wired out of phase.
You can use REW or Audacity to generate a signal that is out of phase between channels. This should cancel out fairly well when speakers are placed face to face.

 

[Sokel]

Use this to place them accordingly:

Virtual Acoustic Space | Auditory Neuroscience

auditoryneuroscience.com

 

[Tupisac]

So I made another thread a few days ago asking about whether I should get studio monitors or hifi speakers for good imaging sitting at my desk.

You've asked about "engagement" and flatness. Different things.

I agree with the store owner and my bet is on amp or your pair of speakers (or just one - imaging starts with matching drivers). Slight level imbalance, phase mismatch from a leaky capacitor in one of the crossovers, all those minor things can throw everything out of whack.

If your system is working as intended and your head is in ok-ish nearfield margin - imaging should be there regardless of room conditions.

My JBL 305 monitors always paint a perfect, holographic image. First I've had them directly on my crappy IKEA desk, near a wall, in the corner of my room, without any corrections. Lots of boomy resonances, wooden notes, strange, recessed highs - but imaging was always there. Tried them in three separate rooms - and imaging was always there.

 

[Sokel]

You've asked about "engagement" and flatness. Different things.

I agree with the store owner and my bet is on amp or your pair of speakers (or just one - imaging starts with matching drivers). My JBL 305 monitors always paint a perfect, holographic image. First I've had them directly on my crappy IKEA desk, near a wall, in the corner of my room, without any corrections. Lots of boomy resonances, wooden notes, strange, recessed highs - but imaging was always there. Tried them in three separate rooms - and imaging was always there.

Even with the most crappy speakers (that are at least the same) someone can have image in a small triangle and moderate levels.
I don't know if holographic means true to the dimensions of the test I posted above but if so I do it even with my old desk Fostex's (PMO.4c) in a 1 meter triangle.

And it's fun to play and observe how the dimensions change according the placement,toe in/out/etc.
If I can do it with such a simple speaker and no actual knowledge...

 

[JayGilb]

Paint the walls something besides white. Your brain will thank you with better imaging.

 

[Tupisac]

I don't know if holographic means true to the dimensions of the test I posted above

All right, holographic on the horizontal plane. And by holographic I mean a line from left to right . Up/down and far/near is... let's say optional.

I personally test "imaging" with this:

Also, JM Jarre's whole "Amazonia".

 

[restorer-john]

I agree with the store owner and my bet is on amp or your pair of speakers (or just one - imaging starts with matching drivers). Slight level imbalance, phase mismatch from a leaky capacitor in one of the crossovers, all those minor things can throw everything out of whack.

Tiny, and I mean tiny differences in a pair of speakers will destroy or seriously damage imaging.

 

[Tupisac]

Tiny, and I mean tiny differences in a pair of speakers will destroy or seriously damage imaging.

Yup.

I'd go with AnalogSteph's advice and start with the wiring. Something is definately wrong in OP's system, not a room.


EDIT - generally it's another argument for going active. Passive crossovers are just pure evil, it's hard to connect XLR or RCA wrong and if active speaker is broken - it's broken and that's it. You don't have to troubleshoot the whole chain.

 

[olegtern]

EDIT - generally it's another argument for going active. Passive crossovers are just pure evil, it's hard to connect XLR or RCA wrong and if active speaker is broken - it's broken and that's it. You don't have to troubleshoot the whole chain.

Yep, it's almost impossible to connect + to + and - to -, it's pure evil! Need to call a repairman to troubleshoot the whole chain!

 

[Tupisac]

Yep, it's almost impossible to connect + to + and - to -, it's pure evil!

You'd be surprised. Actually it's like 70% of service cases in all industry fields dealing with two or more wires. Should be less than 50% by common logic, but Applied Murphy's Law states otherwise.

 

[DVDdoug]

Imaging and soundstage are (usually) imperfect illusions. It depends on the recording, you and your brain and your imagination, room acoustics, speakers, listening position and speaker position, and maybe other variables.

Personally, I can identify sounds hard-panned left or right coming directly out of the left or right speaker, especially high frequencies from the tweeter, but the center (and anything else) is rather vague. ...It sounds like I have a "wide" center speaker. I'm sure that's true for most people, otherwise surround sound wouldn't need a center channel/speaker.

 

[AdamG]

Just a suggestion but have you measured each speaker? One could have a problem or one could be slightly more or less efficient than the other and at your very close distance you can hear it? Maybe your amp is not completely balanced and putting out slightly more power to one side? Get a microphone and do some measurements.

Proximity to one side wall?

I second the proximity to a side wall causing boundary gain to one channel. With a mic and some eq you could fix that.

On edit: Looking at your picture of the room you have a cubby hall on the right side. This space volume will act as a bass resonator for the right speaker and could cause the imbalance that is pulling the image to the right. Can you try moving your desk to face the wall on the right, just for a test run and report back what you notice? That little hall cubby is going to be problematic without treatment.

Is that glass behind you? Can you provide a picture of the sides and back of the room please?

Oh and Welcome Aboard @thedantestyle

 

[olegtern]

You'd be surprised. Actually it's like 70% of service cases in all industry fields dealing with two or more wires. Should be less than 50% by common logic, but Applied Murphy's Law states otherwise.

And all people who ate cucumbers in 19 century died. #2 in the list of purest evils!

 

[Marc v E]

Speaker stands that put the tweeter at ear hight will improve it by miles ime. Then measure by rew and see what you've got and can be improved upon. Also check your speakers are in phase. Then it should be much better.

Imo the absolute best would be coaxial speakers but that is like the technically highest achievable. You can get much closer to what you heard in store by placing your current speakers on stands.

 

[rwortman]

Imaging and soundstage are (usually) imperfect illusions. It depends on the recording, you and your brain and your imagination, room acoustics, speakers, listening position and speaker position, and maybe other variables.

Personally, I can identify sounds hard-panned left or right coming directly out of the left or right speaker, especially high frequencies from the tweeter, but the center (and anything else) is rather vague. ...It sounds like I have a "wide" center speaker. I'm sure that's true for most people, otherwise surround sound wouldn't need a center channel/speaker.

I agree. I think the magazine reviewers talking about pinpoint images in a “black” background are smoking something.