Why is Lumin so expensive?

[murraycamp]

Name 2

Take your pick Chief: Audio Electronics Review and Measurements Index | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

 

[FrantzM]

I have owned a Lumin D2 for a while and can tell you its worth every penny I paid. Bullet proof absolutely fantastic sound. No bench testing al la Amir but just offloading my streaming duties from my AV proc and/or Oppo udp this product was orders of magnitude better, pick your parameter. Based on those observations if my financial reality supported the purchase of a T2 I would not hesitate.

Without bench testing how can you state :

this product was orders of magnitude better, pick your parameter

....?
But ...
I'll leave the pick to you .
Please tell us how you reached those conclusions.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Hi all
Is there any good objective reason why Lumin is that expensive? When looking at inside the box (e.g. In T2), the box seems mostly empty (ess 9028). I am curious about what our technical experts think about these products.
View attachment 41844

The case will be the most expensive part of that product by far, so maybe they are relying on an impressive look to justify a high price for a product which is neither better nor worse than other functionally similar units at both lower and higher prices?

 

[Mars2k]

That is not a serious answer. Perhaps I'm perceiving your reply through the lens of my post only. Could you recommend 2 products that perform as well or better than my D2 for less money? Quality does matter, it can be expensive ever complying with law of diminishing returns. I get the retail hype, I get the hi end magazine hype. I come to this site for hard testing data and legitimate information from actual users with real experience with the products directly or perhaps intelligent thoughtful enthusiasm for the hobby with experience with analogous products or perhaps seasoned professionals in the business writ large. Am I expecting too much?
My experience here has been, however, those qualifications rarely apply here, present company exclude of course. The vibe here seems to be a lot of negative conjecture with a tendency toward bloviation with a decided lack of impulse control. Further there also seems to be a constant pattern of low grade trolling

 

[Zensō]

That is not a serious answer. Perhaps I'm perceiving your reply through the lens of my post only. Could you recommend 2 products that perform as well or better than my D2 for less money? Quality does matter, it can be expensive ever complying with law of diminishing returns. I get the retail hype, I get the hi end magazine hype. I come to this site for hard testing data and legitimate information from actual users with real experience with the products directly or perhaps intelligent thoughtful enthusiasm for the hobby with experience with analogous products or perhaps seasoned professionals in the business writ large. Am I expecting too much?
My experience here has been, however, those qualifications rarely apply here, present company exclude of course. The vibe here seems to be a lot of negative conjecture with a tendency toward bloviation with a decided lack of impulse control. Further there also seems to be a constant pattern of low grade trolling

First off, I was responding to the OP, not you. Secondly, yours was not a serious question. When one of a person’s first posts on a science forum is to make extravagant claims about a product to defend their purchase, a cogent response is not warranted. If you’d truly like to find an answer to your question, there are hundreds of reviews here:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?pages/Audio_Equipment_Reviews/

 

[Ron Texas]

It's expensive because the circuit board has traces of unobtanium in it, has been coated with fairy dust and the manufacturer thinks we are a bunch of idiots who will pay for it.

 

[voodooless]

Could you recommend 2 products that perform as well or better than my D2 for less money?

Well, the honest answer is: we can't. There are no measurements, and neither are there any specs mentioned on the lumin website.. which in itself is worrying already. I'm pretty sure we'll find better or equal performing products for less money. The things already tested are already reaching the limits of what is physically possible. There is no reason to think this will do much better.

 

[Frank Dernie]

That is not a serious answer. Perhaps I'm perceiving your reply through the lens of my post only. Could you recommend 2 products that perform as well or better than my D2 for less money? Quality does matter, it can be expensive ever complying with law of diminishing returns. I get the retail hype, I get the hi end magazine hype. I come to this site for hard testing data and legitimate information from actual users with real experience with the products directly or perhaps intelligent thoughtful enthusiasm for the hobby with experience with analogous products or perhaps seasoned professionals in the business writ large. Am I expecting too much?
My experience here has been, however, those qualifications rarely apply here, present company exclude of course. The vibe here seems to be a lot of negative conjecture with a tendency toward bloviation with a decided lack of impulse control. Further there also seems to be a constant pattern of low grade trolling

I have looked on their web site. It doesn't give any proper information about its likely performance, just mentions which chips are used which tells nothing since it is the implementation which determines the actual performance realised by the chip in a circuit, so, in effect their web site tells nothing about its potential performance at all.
In any case there are plenty of audibly transparent digital devices around so it will be the functionality of the software control which would give the most potential for satisfaction or otherwise not its SQ (apart from any placebo effect).

 

[Mars2k]

Without bench testing how can you state : ....?
But ...
I'll leave the pick to you .
Please tell us how you reached those conclusions.

Any parameter. My best example would be a complete lack of glare or harshness in the presentation. An amazing ability to deliver the very subtle the micro dynamics buried in the hi resolution files in my library. A case in point would be the perception of the shimmer of sounds coming from the hall boundaries where the music was recorded. Again these are perceptions rather than hard measurements. See my previous post referring to the av processor, Marantz AV 8802A and AV 7705 with dnla streaming from Serviio music server, or UDP players OPPO UDP 203 and OPPO UDP 205 analogue out or HDMI for both. direct dnla and as ROON endpoints though the Marantz processors.
The D2 took my system to a new level altogether. I reached the conclusion with a direct comparison to the DACs listed. Please consider D2 analogue out through either of the Marantz pre/procs was devoid of glare compared to the Marantzs themselves. The same was true for the OPPOs' presentation through the same Marantzs compare to the D2
That lack of glare would be a great measure of a DAC's quality. Two DACs using the same chip with different board designs could vary wildly in this.

 

[Mars2k]

I have looked on their web site. It doesn't give any proper information about its likely performance, just mentions which chips are used which tells nothing since it is the implementation which determines the actual performance realised by the chip in a circuit, so, in effect their web site tells nothing about its potential performance at all.
In any case there are plenty of audibly transparent digital devices around so it will be the functionality of the software control which would give the most potential for satisfaction or otherwise not its SQ (apart from any placebo effect).

I would call that an absence of hype, I would look to reviews from credible sources out in the wild.

 

[voodooless]

I would call that an absence of hype, I would look to reviews from credible sources out in the wild.

What do you think is credible? I’m pretty sure it going to be the polar opposite of what most people here think is credible.

 

[Willem]

I think you are in the wrong place. We do science here, and that means proper theory, measurements and double blind listening tests. If you want a suggestion for a perfect DAC, look for RME ADI-2, selling for about 1000 euros. It does not get any better, and you get volume, balance, tone and dynamic loudness controls thrown into the bargain. It has multiple inputs, so you can also use it for your TV and Bluray audio. For a streamer, have a look at the Chromecast Audio's optical output.

 

[Killingbeans]

Any parameter. My best example would be a complete lack of glare or harshness in the presentation. An amazing ability to deliver the very subtle the micro dynamics buried in the hi resolution files in my library. A case in point would be the perception of the shimmer of sounds coming from the hall boundaries where the music was recorded. Again these are perceptions rather than hard measurements.

I wouldn't really count impressions and perceptions as parameters. Don't get me wrong, they are vital to your own personal experience, but there's a risk of it being something others will not experience unless they are influenced by the same suggestions as you.

 

[threni]

Any parameter. My best example would be a complete lack of glare or harshness in the presentation. An amazing ability to deliver the very subtle the micro dynamics buried in the hi resolution files in my library. A case in point would be the perception of the shimmer of sounds coming from the hall boundaries where the music was recorded. Again these are perceptions rather than hard measurements. See my previous post referring to the av processor, Marantz AV 8802A and AV 7705 with dnla streaming from Serviio music server, or UDP players OPPO UDP 203 and OPPO UDP 205 analogue out or HDMI for both. direct dnla and as ROON endpoints though the Marantz processors.
The D2 took my system to a new level altogether. I reached the conclusion with a direct comparison to the DACs listed. Please consider D2 analogue out through either of the Marantz pre/procs was devoid of glare compared to the Marantzs themselves. The same was true for the OPPOs' presentation through the same Marantzs compare to the D2
That lack of glare would be a great measure of a DAC's quality. Two DACs using the same chip with different board designs could vary wildly in this.

Todays review was brought to you by the words glare, harsh and micro-dynamics.

Actually, someone posted a link to something about micro-dynamics here the other day:
https://miloburke.com/blogs/personal-blog/posts/micro-dynamics-and-macro-dynamics

---
What are the elements of good micro-dynamics?
The rhythm of the song seems to pulse. This has a lot to do with the volume balance between the instruments in the mix, in that steady-state instruments like pads are mixed low, while percussive instruments like drums are mixed loud.
---

I'd expect pulsing rhythms in my songs if I was paying nearly £4000 for a DAC.

 

[Frank Dernie]

I would call that an absence of hype, I would look to reviews from credible sources out in the wild.

I don't think there have been any AFAIK.
I was brought up before the fashion for low budget subjective reviews and whilst seduced by it for a while am back to believing a review with expertly carried out measurements by somebody who knows what they are doing are the only ones with an iota of value.
I have subscribed to HiFi News on and off for over 50 years and now weight the measurements very much higher than any subjective fluff once again.

 

[Mars2k]

I wouldn't really count impressions and perceptions as parameters. Don't get me wrong, they are vital to your own personal experience, but there's a risk of it being something others will not experience unless they are influenced by the same suggestions as you.

Point taken, I did offered a perception but that's all I have to go on. The theory being that if my beat up old ears can pick up something new , subtle and beautiful then there might be a chance someone else might as well. Never mind the infinite variable in systems here.
At the end of the day it is really all about perception isn't it? I love it when the magic happens and that may not show up on a graph.

What do you think is credible? I’m pretty sure it going to be the polar opposite of what most people here think is credible.

Well you know they say about assumptions.

 

[Frank Dernie]

I love it when the magic happens and that may not show up on a graph.

Well the placebo effect is very powerful, it can cure some diseases and even have "side effects" with pills that do nothing and it can sound better with audio equipment which does nothing too, and it is just as real. If you hear it that is all that matters.

 

[PierreV]

I would call that an absence of hype, I would look to reviews from credible sources out in the wild.

Name 2
(sorry, couldn't resist)

"Credible sources without measurements" = opinions. No more, no less.

Again these are perceptions rather than hard measurements. See my previous post referring to the av processor, Marantz AV 8802A and AV 7705 with dnla streaming from Serviio music server, or UDP players OPPO UDP 203 and OPPO UDP 205 analogue out or HDMI for both. direct dnla and as ROON endpoints though the Marantz processors.

It is indeed conceivable that your improvement perception could actually be documented by measurements if you got tangled in AVRs, analogue and HDMI outputs. But that doesn't mean that this eventual improvement could only have been achieved with your Lumin.

As far as I am concerned, I can't hear any differences in my system's DAC/Streamers which happen to be priced in the 300 to 7000 EUR range.

I do hear a difference between the 300-7000 EUR category and the 30 EUR category (analog CCA out) though.

It is one thing to be happy with one's purchase (I am happy with my approx 7000 EUR one, would retrospectively buy it again but not today given the evolution) in terms of inputs outputs, features, stability, constant upgrades, etc but it is a completely different one to attribute that happiness to ethereal minuscule subjective differences IMHO.

 

[Mars2k]

I think you are in the wrong place. We do science here, and that means proper theory, measurements and double blind listening tests. If you want a suggestion for a perfect DAC, look for RME ADI-2, selling for about 1000 euros. It does not get any better, and you get volume, balance, tone and dynamic loudness controls thrown into the bargain. It has multiple inputs, so you can also use it for your TV and Bluray audio. For a streamer, have a look at the Chromecast Audio's optical output.

You are right I am in the wrong place and I appreciate your positive responses to my question. Name 2 and you did

 

[voodooless]

Well you know they say about assumptions.

That’s why I asked about it.. So? Am I right or not?