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Why Is Hi-Fi Gear So Darn Expensive?!

Mart68

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Had to look up 'Yorx'. https://gizmodo.com/low-end-theory-147048

Like an American version of Amstrad.?


delete duplicates

'The Weekly Home Furnishings Newsletter lauded Yorx's products as "the stars of the Consumer Electronics Show," circa 1980. The Space Saver systems "had control panels that looked like the cockpit on a 747," the publication breathlessly reported. '
 

Doodski

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The Space Saver systems "had control panels that looked like the cockpit on a 747," the publication breathlessly reported. '
Pant... pant... Ima breathless just reading this...lol. :D That actually looks pretty good compared to the black and gray plastic units that I've handled. :D
 

Waxx

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Sometimes it's also just because you can. A perfect example is Thomas Mayer, a german tube amp builder who makes way to complex tube amps, but they are handmade, beautifull build, very reliable and do sound good. They are also only build on order and often cost the equivalent of a house. If they are better than my relative cheap tube amp, i doubt it, but they do sound good.

I know there is a waiting row to get one of his amps (i spec'ed and ordered one for a client of me his "show off" setup). This with almost no marketing (but his own blog), and without any real claims of superiority. His amps probally don't measure that well when Amir would measure them, but they are nice to listen to. He is also the owner of the Elrog tube brand, that makes tubes of very high quality (but sells them for a very high price). His designs are with no semiconductors or elco's, so full tube/transformer/film or oil cap layouts. I don't think that that makes it sound better, but it looks impressive.

I would never spend so much money on amps, not even when i was as rich as Musk, but I got no problems with who does. It's not only engineering, it's also art and design where you pay for, just like he always build custom (so you have an unique one). And yes, there are amps that are technically much better for 0.1% of the price or even less, but they don't look that good.

P20.jpg
P61.jpg
 

Digby

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Two good points made earlier, sorry but too lazy to find them and quote, so I will paraphrase:

1. Hi-fi is cheaper than ever
2. Hi-fi in the past (the pre-historic, aka pre-boomer past) also used to be expensive

Both of these points are true. I think what has changed is the value for money you get at the lower prices, very good value; if you compare a modern ultra-expensive Hi-Fi to the advert from the 1940s shown by MakeMineVinyl, the product after inflation was about $5000, so that would be today's, uh, midrange prices? Top tier stuff (JBL Everest) would be almost twenty times as expensive.

It is not that hi-fi is either cheaper or more expensive, but that the gap between the two poles has widened considerably.

Sometimes it's also just because you can. A perfect example is Thomas Mayer, a german tube amp builder who makes way to complex tube amps, but they are handmade, beautifull build, very reliable and do sound good. They are also only build on order and often cost the equivalent of a house. If they are better than my relative cheap tube amp, i doubt it, but they do sound good.
Maybe what you are also buying is direct access to the engineer. If you buy one of his amps, I imagine he wouldn't mind you coming over to his house for a listening session and a chat about the amp and music, or he would come to you. If you are very wealthy, this might be something that is more appealing than dealing with a big manufacturer, where there is no one to one connection available to designers and engineers. Who knows, just a thought.
 

Waxx

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Two good points made earlier, sorry but too lazy to find them and quote, so I will paraphrase:

1. Hi-fi is cheaper than ever
2. Hi-fi in the past (the pre-historic, aka pre-boomer past) also used to be expensive

Both of these points are true. I think what has changed is the value for money you get at the lower prices, very good value; if you compare a modern ultra-expensive Hi-Fi to the advert from the 1940s shown by MakeMineVinyl, the product after inflation was about $5000, so that would be today's, uh, midrange prices? Top tier stuff (JBL Everest) would be almost twenty times as expensive.

It is not that hi-fi is either cheaper or more expensive, but that the gap between the two poles has widened considerably.


Maybe what you are also buying is direct access to the engineer. If you buy one of his amps, I imagine he wouldn't mind you coming over to his house for a listening session and a chat about the amp and music, or he would come to you. If you are very wealthy, this might be something that is more appealing than dealing with a big manufacturer, where there is no one to one connection available to designers and engineers. Who knows, just a thought.
It goes further than that, you can really spec your own amplifier concerning the basic system (what kind of tubes and transfo's, is it DHT SE or something else), what wood for the cabinet, what metal for the top plate, ...

The amps are also installed and tested at your place by the engineers, and you got direct access to the technical team behind it, that is true. It's a bit a service like Rolls Royce does with their cars and the extensive personalisation you can do with it and with an extensive after sale service. Not like a lot of other were you spend your money and next year they try to sell you their "new version" that is actually the the same but in a new package and more expensive...

But for us, ordinary peasants ;), we need to do with what is in the shops. Those are luckely not technical inferior (even for tube amps), just less shiney, personalised and expensive...
 

Digby

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So, it's a customisable "lifestyle package", so to speak. I suppose this has a lot of value for those who are money rich, but time poor. I can understand the appeal.
 

Sokel

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Because there are boat loads of Rubes willing to shell out ridiculous amounts of money for Style over performance. Like buying a Ferrari with a lawnmower engine.
Not the case in some circumstances.My friend got two monoblock japanese tube amps that were ugly as hell for 20.000 euro.Looked like something you could make out of scrap.
2x6 watt,and they were really small!Don't remember the brand but is highly regarded amongst highend fans.When put it for sale it sold it in a day for 18.000.
 

sergeauckland

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Sometimes it's also just because you can. A perfect example is Thomas Mayer, a german tube amp builder who makes way to complex tube amps, but they are handmade, beautifull build, very reliable and do sound good. They are also only build on order and often cost the equivalent of a house. If they are better than my relative cheap tube amp, i doubt it, but they do sound good.

I know there is a waiting row to get one of his amps (i spec'ed and ordered one for a client of me his "show off" setup). This with almost no marketing (but his own blog), and without any real claims of superiority. His amps probally don't measure that well when Amir would measure them, but they are nice to listen to. He is also the owner of the Elrog tube brand, that makes tubes of very high quality (but sells them for a very high price). His designs are with no semiconductors or elco's, so full tube/transformer/film or oil cap layouts. I don't think that that makes it sound better, but it looks impressive.

I would never spend so much money on amps, not even when i was as rich as Musk, but I got no problems with who does. It's not only engineering, it's also art and design where you pay for, just like he always build custom (so you have an unique one). And yes, there are amps that are technically much better for 0.1% of the price or even less, but they don't look that good.

P20.jpg
P61.jpg
I think those amps are a perfect example of the adage that just because you can, doesn't mean you should. It may be art, but it's certainly not engineering, if you define engineering as doing something in the most cost-effective and technically sound manner.

S.
 

iMickey503

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I would never spend so much money on amps, not even when i was as rich as Musk, but I got no problems with who does. It's not only engineering, it's also art and design where you pay for, just like he always build custom (so you have an unique one). And yes, there are amps that are technically much better for 0.1% of the price or even less, but they don't look that good.

P20.jpg
P61.jpg

I don't need a Reason to love you. I just do.
her_2013.jpg
 

Sokel

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I think those amps are a perfect example of the adage that just because you can, doesn't mean you should. It may be art, but it's certainly not engineering, if you define engineering as doing something in the most cost-effective and technically sound manner.

S.
I was always wondering about the thinking of engineers when having different goals.For example,what would you think about a 2000 watt beast (1Ohm) like luxman B-1000F with a price at 50k a pair?Is it worth it?
 

Waxx

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I think those amps are a perfect example of the adage that just because you can, doesn't mean you should. It may be art, but it's certainly not engineering, if you define engineering as doing something in the most cost-effective and technically sound manner.

S.
Those are certainly not cost-effective or technically perfect. But this kind of engineering has a different goal. Making something work while limiting yourself to only a few ways of doing thnigs. But at least those amps do what they say they do, and do sound good even if it's limited in the technology used for it.

If you want to compare it with cars, these are like the Morgan cars, using old tech and styling and max out the possiblities of it in a shiny package for the enjoyment of the user. Not making the best car arround. They are not fuel efficient, they will never win any race nor be practical. But they are a lot of fun to drive...

images
 

DavidEdwinAston

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Gorgonzola

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Good for a chuckle. Typical "rationalization" from TAS.

So why do high-end makers, especially North American and European, charge so much money for their products? There are two, basic explanations, (IMHO):
  1. Because they CAN, and
  2. Because they MUST.
They can because of the hugely increasing disparity of incomes and wealth in the majority of countries in the world. The top 10% of people, (and of course, especially the top 1%), have far more money than ever before in recent history and can afford and, accordingly, desire objects of the greatest (perceived) performance and prestige.

They also must make expensive products because only high-price components allow the high margins required by shorter production runs and/or less automation than mass consumer products, and, (in case of N.A. and Europe at least), tolerate higher cost of inputs, particularly labor.

On the other hand, makers notably in China, and able to produce products of actual high-performance of relatively reasonable prices. Topping, (for just one example), produces extremely well designed, very well made products. Recently I heard about Denafrips preamps and power amps; (previously I was only really aware of their R2R DACs). 6Moons reviewed the Denafrips Athena preamp, comparing it very favorable with the comparable product of an American make that cost almost twice as much. The Athena is really quite stunning for its (apparent) quality and measurements. (See the pic below).

Can N.A. makers compete with the likes of Topping and Denafrips? Well maybe. Schiit Audio for example are making valiant effort to do so. How? I'd say by clever design and greater automation than the "prestige" makers McIntosh, Conrad Johnson, or ARC, and by aiming for higher sales volume. However I would say the Schiit products do make certain compromises in cosmetics and feature refinement, (and I'm not even talking about quirky designs).

Denafrips Athena preamp: pretty gorgeous especially for about US$2K ...
1.jpg

2-scaled.jpg
 

Digby

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On the other hand, makers notably in China, and able to produce products of actual high-performance of relatively reasonable prices. Topping, (for just one example), produces extremely well designed, very well made products.
There does seem to be a question around reliability, longevity and arranging in-warranty repairs (see Topping PA5 thread). I hope they can iron these things over time.
 

Katji

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Component QA [incoming from suppliers / iow, supply chain management], then QA in manufacturing process. Then QA in after-sales support service.
Less "middlemen"/importer/distributor the better. (Unless importer/distributor maintains stock or component stock for warranty service. In most/all instances, they just test/check and then apply to the manufacturer or to their regional supplier. In which case it is often a matter of communication with the customer.
 

Spkrdctr

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Pant... pant... Ima breathless just reading this...lol. :D That actually looks pretty good compared to the black and gray plastic units that I've handled. :D
I was shocked too. I never saw a Yorx unit that looked that good. They were always crappy plastic and everything engineered to the lowest tech to get it out the door. I wonder when they went bust?
 

Gorgonzola

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There does seem to be a question around reliability, longevity and arranging in-warranty repairs (see Topping PA5 thread). I hope they {Chinese makers} can iron these things over time.
That's very true. So far the Chinese makers a have dodged the costs & issues of foreign distribution and support networks.
 
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