Why invest money into expensive audio gear?

[Daze]

Hello everyone,

this is my first post here, but I am not new for this forum. I've been lurking for over a year and I must say that I really appreciate everything you are doing. You have already helped me in getting started on a nice Headphone setup (KTB + O2). I have not found a similar thread on this forum. If there is one, feel free to close this and just direct me there.

For a few months now I have a home theater at home. I have some nice DIY-speakers in the front (surrounds to be upgraded soon™) and a Denon X-3500H to decode and drive everything. And it's working nicely. For video I can connect all my HDMI sources effortlessly and if I just want to listen to stereo music I can use Spotify connect to play music directly from the Denon (again, effortlessly). It even has Audyssey XT32 which gives subjectively much better sound, though I assume that's mostly because of it's "dynamic volume" which add bass and treble when listening below reference level. I mostly listen on lower volumes.

Now my dilemma is this: I have the urge to buy dedicated stereo equipment for music listening. In my mind I would like to have something like a KTB (or LA-QXD1 once it's available), a Hypex-based amp (probably containing the NC122MP) and a Raspberry Pi running volumio as the source. Also I would have to add a passive RCA switch to switch between the Denon and the stereo setup.

But why should I do that?

According to the measurements from this site, the Denon is "terrible". It barely got a pass in its review. Mainly because of it's poor DAC implementation. But even the 73db SINAD of the Denon's DAC should be inaudible, no? So why should I go ahead and spend a lot of money and time to make my setup more complicated but not audibly better?

I know this might seem like I am trolling, but I am genuinely curious and I would like to know what the opinion of you guys on this is. Because I cannot quite understand the mindset that many folks on this forum have. On one hand I often read "the distortion is there but it is so low that you will not hear it", on the other hand even in this forum people are spending 1000s of dollars/euros for equipment that - according to the measurements - does not sound different from equipment that could've been gotten for a tenth of that price.

I know there are some sound-unrelated differences like build-quality or I/O options (balanced I/O) that can be better in expensive products but honestly for me personally a shiny case is not worth a 4-digit amount. Also I don't need I/O ports that I don't use. And even balanced I/O, which a lot of people in this forum seem to prioritize when selecting equipment, is not really necessary in a typical living room, is it?

So to conclude, when the measurements show no sign of audible difference between cheap and expensive gear, why do you invest money into expensive audio components and why should I?

 

[PierreV]

It is never an investment, always an expense. But, yes, audibility of measured differences isn't a given. Balanced in a private setup is mostly about avoiding possible Gremlins. Never, ever, feel compelled to buy anything based on what you read. Listening to very good speakers driven by a competent amplifier may be worth your time though.

 

[RayDunzl]

Go to an audio show.

They like to exhibit stereo.

Usually, lots of them.

See if you're still happy with what you have when you get home.

If yes, you're still done, for now.

 

[LeftCoastTim]

70dB SINAD (or “consumer grade”) is likely good enough for everyone thanks to masking effects in human hearing.

Bad speakers on the other hand, I find much more noticeable / objectionable. I think it’s worth the money to spend on nicer speakers.

People have all kinds of hobbies that are irrational. I used to be into fountain pens for example. Totally impractical.

Still I am glad a group of enthusiasts exist that care about measurements, because I was able to find very good information when I was looking to upgrade my system.

 

[Daze]

I should clarify that I am NOT talking about investing into speakers. Audible differences between speakers are clear as day if you compare them side by side. I am talking about DACs, (pre-)amps and their likes.

I would argue that my speakers are already pretty good. They are a design of the well-regarded german designer Udo Wohlgemuth and are accepted as one of his better designs. I have compared them to other speakers and while there are of course differences, I really enjoy the sound signature of my speakers and have nothing to complain about.

Going to an audio show won't necessarily help me either. There's just too many variables changing at once. How am I supposed to know how a great setup at an audio show will sound if you swap the amplifier, or the DAC, or the cables?

For comparison's sake I have recently ordered a Yamaha WXA-50. I could not blindly compare it to my Denon because I have no way to simply switch between the amps. So I did a sighted comparison. I could only notice very nuanced differences which were more likely caused by expectation bias than actual audio quality. In fact, once I turned on Audyssey the Denon sounded better, giving it an actual advantage over the dedicated stereo amp (loudness control on the Yamaha sounded terrible).

The thing is: I, like many here, am on a quest to always increase the sound quality of my system. It is quite addicting. And I am willing to spend money for that. However, I have yet to experience any difference between (decent) amplifiers for myself.

Please do not take the following, intentionally exaggerated, rhetoric too seriously but from my severly limited experience one could argue that devices that measure below the audibility threshold are the snake oil of the audio objectionists.

 

[Daze]

People have all kinds of hobbies that are irrational. I used to be into fountain pens for example. Totally impractical.

Still I am glad a group of enthusiasts exist that care about measurements, because I was able to find very good information when I was looking to upgrade my system.

That's a good and totally valid point. It is interesting to compare audio equipment. It is interesting to dive into it and compare the precision and attention to details that good measuring components were engineered with. And it also is a good feeling, knowing that you have one of the best-engineered audio-devices ever created.

However, my point is targeted at the rational side of things. Rationally the measurements don't matter. What matters is the resulting listening experience. And when the well-engineered products are audibly the same as the badly implemented ones, then the listening experience should be the same for both.

Maybe it isn't though. Maybe just knowing that you have a well-engineered piece of equipment makes your listening experience more enjoyable even if you could not tell the difference in a blindfolded test. In the end you will probably know what sort of equipment you have at home and enjoy it without putting a blindfold on before starting the playback

 

[Fluffy]

I also don't see much point to it, especially regarding DACs, and to a lesser extent amps. If the device is measured below the audibility threshold, then sonically there is no reason to upgrade. I do think that it's reasonable to get gear that hasn't borderline audible defects, but has some safety margin. Say, If SINAD of 70 db sounds good enough, then get one with SINAD of 90 db for safety. Besides that, upgrading comes down to features and capabilities. If the device you are using can do all you need it to do and is audibly transparent to you, then that's it.

I believe the biggest investment should obviously be the transducers. My speaker set up right now is pretty rudimentary, but in my headphone set up the headphones cost many multiples of the dac/amp. A 99$ dac is certainly good enough to drive 1500$ headphones. Upgrading to a 1000$ dac would improve nothing.

 

[PierreV]

turned on Audyssey the Denon sounded better, giving it an actual advantage over the dedicated stereo amp (loudness control on the Yamaha sounded terrible).

That seems to indicate you would benefit more from DSP based room correction. Take a few measurements and see how the room behaves. Virtually all private rooms are ”bad” in their own specific ways.

 

[Daze]

That seems to indicate you would benefit more from DSP based room correction. Take a few measurements and see how the room behaves. Virtually all private rooms are ”bad” in their own specific ways.

As I mentioned in my opening post, the main advantage of Audyssey for me is the "dynamic volume" aka loudness control. When I disable dynamic volume I don't hear much of a difference between Audyssey being on or off.
The Denon also offers me the option to disable Audyssey, but feed its calculated values to a graphic EQ. If I do that it just cuts away ~1db in the bass and adds ~1db in the treble. Again, that indicates that Audyssey is not really doing much for me except for giving me a nice loudness control.

Still, I want to try REW and see if that makes a difference compared to Audyssey. However, I would have to get a good mic first. Taking REW measurements with my smartphone probably isn't the best idea.

 

[Prana Ferox]

As others said, the key is recognizing it's a hobby. People throw money at hobbies, and that can be fun, but if it's not fun, don't do it. A hobby is never a necessity, the enjoyment doesn't have to be rational, but don't let it turn into a religion.

Remember too, this is all commodity consumer gear. We're not fighting over the last Picasso. If you don't have to have it today, it will be there tomorrow. Or a week from now, or 3 months. Or something better will be. And you can always get it used. So if you want thing X can't make the argument "I need thing X to do Y, which I can't do with my current gear Z, and I want to do right away" then wait. You may find thing X wasn't what you wanted at all, or Y no longer interests you. This hobby tends to pick Holy Grails and there can be community pressure to pick them up, but that doesn't mean you need to follow.

I also have an X3500H and have backed Audyssey off to just Dynamic Volume. I don't have the app yet so haven't played with it to see if I can get more out of it.