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Why I am unable to hear any difference between these DACs?

Killingbeans

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Honestly if you are running a low budget Topping DAC it's hard to make any kind of assessment on sound quality. I would not be measuring these budget type implementations as it would not be a result worth reading. -It's not a space I play in and expect good things from.
All of the specs are available already for these out of the box systems so there is really not a big need to do measurements if you're room is setup properly.

Awesome! Now we're getting somewhere. Please give me the model designation of the Onkyo, so I can compare the specs to his terrible piece of junk Topping: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/topping-d90se-review-balanced-dac.24235/
 

_thelaughingman

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BDWoody

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You can't refer to a $300 DAC and say you can't tell the difference between that and some much more refined, I don't need to qualify that

Sure I can.

Until someone demonstrates with more than arrogance and elitism that there's better sound available that is only accessible for more money.

You are beclowning yourself more and more with each post.
 

Killingbeans

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Onkyo, PRC553

PR-SC5530? Only specs on the product web page is frequency response (of the amp section), dimensions and weight. Not much to go on.

But I must compliment you on your trolling. It was a good effort :)
 

Geert

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The energy spend on repeating the same discussions and fighting trolls on a daily base would be better spent on something meaningful. These types of discussion are starting to become the majority of posts. It would be nice to come up with a more efficient procedure to deal with this.
 

Blumlein 88

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So @hwest you are complaining about a DAC for $300 having no chance to sound good or refined. It is a $150/per channel DAC doing one simple job of DA conversion. Yet your Onkyo which sold for $2500 new, and likely was discounted to $15-1800 once released is better. A device which at full MSRP is about $200/per channel, plus beside doing only DA conversion it also does extensive video processing, surround processing of multiple formats as well as acting like a preamp for each channel and switching all of those. Seems to me on a per channel basis the chance of them using extra nice design and components is not possible. Seems like the Onkyo is not expensive enough to consider. What is your cost per channel for basic DA conversion where it becomes good enough to consider and analyze?
 

hwest

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So @hwest you are complaining about a DAC for $300 having no chance to sound good or refined. It is a $150/per channel DAC doing one simple job of DA conversion. Yet your Onkyo which sold for $2500 new, and likely was discounted to $15-1800 once released is better. A device which at full MSRP is about $200/per channel, plus beside doing only DA conversion it also does extensive video processing, surround processing of multiple formats as well as acting like a preamp for each channel and switching all of those. Seems to me on a per channel basis the chance of them using extra nice design and components is not possible. Seems like the Onkyo is not expensive enough to consider. What is your cost per channel for basic DA conversion where it becomes good enough to consider and analyze
I'm speaking to what I hear from my gear like for like, if you put forth a two channel DAC as a comparison against a 7 DAC system clearly it changes the price structure I did say I like ESS DAC's no argument there. When I say low budget DAC I meant low budget DAC not a higher end ESS with a good implementation.
 

hwest

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PR-SC5530? Only specs on the product web page is frequency response (of the amp section), dimensions and weight. Not much to go on.

But I must compliment you on your trolling. It was a good effort :)
I'm sure there are some measurements out there on the Onkyo PRC-5530, I will look.
 

Blumlein 88

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I'm speaking to what I hear from my gear like for like, if you put forth a two channel DAC as a comparison against a 7 DAC system clearly it changes the price structure I did say I like ESS DAC's no argument there. When I say low budget DAC I meant low budget DAC not a higher end ESS with a good implementation.
What about a budget implementation like a Topping D10 balanced? $139

You aren't going to get anywhere on ASR unless you can provide some more info or measures or some reasonable hypothesis beyond cheap stuff is junk and good stuff is easily heard as different.
 

hwest

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So @hwest you are complaining about a DAC for $300 having no chance to sound good or refined. It is a $150/per channel DAC doing one simple job of DA conversion. Yet your Onkyo which sold for $2500 new, and likely was discounted to $15-1800 once released is better. A device which at full MSRP is about $200/per channel, plus beside doing only DA conversion it also does extensive video processing, surround processing of multiple formats as well as acting like a preamp for each channel and switching all of those. Seems to me on a per channel basis the chance of them using extra nice design and components is not possible. Seems like the Onkyo is not expensive enough to consider. What is your cost per channel for basic DA conversion where it becomes good enough to consider and analyze?
You do realize the person bragging about their DAC referenced a Topping D10 which costs basically 100 bucks right? I'm not the one comparing an $800 ESS higher end Topping to my Onkyo you are.
 

hwest

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What about a budget implementation like a Topping D10 balanced? $139

You aren't going to get anywhere on ASR unless you can provide some more info or measures or some reasonable hypothesis beyond cheap stuff is junk and good stuff is easily heard as different.
There is not much to say about trying to compare a $100 2 channel DAC to a full Preprocessor with better sound, specs or no specs.
 

Killingbeans

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You do realize the person bragging about their DAC referenced a Topping D10 which costs basically 100 bucks right?

What does the price have to do with anything? Amir measured the D10 Balanced, and it performs so good, that it easily fits in the category of audibly transparent DACs: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ds/topping-d10-balanced-review-usb-dac.25094/

Even the "normal" D10s is really freaking good: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...topping-d10s-usb-dac-and-bridge-review.14859/
 
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SIY

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There is not much to say about trying to compare a $100 2 channel DAC to a full Preprocessor with better sound, specs or no specs.
Better sound? Zero evidence of that, and clearly you're not able or willing to back up these ludicrous claims.

I recommend to all a starvation diet- this one is too dishonest to feed.
 

Blumlein 88

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There is not much to say about trying to compare a $100 2 channel DAC to a full Preprocessor with better sound, specs or no specs.
Chances are your pre/pro is not even close to the kind of fidelity in the Topping DAC. You have made some claims and appear to have zero evidence beyond "I say so".

At what price does a device become serious enough to better your Onkyo? Do you know of such devices? Is the Onkyo the world standard?
 

raistlin65

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Aren't we at the point where it's all just I can hear with my magic ears, no you can't, yes I can, no you can't, yes I can.

Seems the thread is descending into pointlessness.

Most of these types of ASR threads are largely pointless, other than an opportunity for objectivists to vent their frustrations with audiophiles.

If you want to make a difference, come help out on r/headphoneadvice. It already very much leans objective when it comes to amps and dacs. There are a lot of people new to the headphone hobby asking advice about amps and dacs who can be persuaded to listen to reason.

Similarly at r/budgetaudiophile when it comes to speaker equipment.

In other words, the amount of energy expended here on hwest could have persuaded several people to avoid the audiophile alternate reality. It's much more productive to build a new generation of audio enthusiasts who understand the value of measurements and the problems with perceptual bias. Rather than arguing with those who drank the Kool-Aid a long time ago.
 

Killingbeans

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Most of these types of ASR threads are largely pointless, other than an opportunity for objectivists to vent their frustrations with audiophiles.

Spot on!

I use them as a form of therapy. There's a local dude who charges you by the hour for strapping you naked to the top of an old Volvo and driving it through mud followed by standing in a circle and primal screaming at each other.

These threads are free :D
 

hwest

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Most of these types of ASR threads are largely pointless, other than an opportunity for objectivists to vent their frustrations with audiophiles.

If you want to make a difference, come help out on r/headphoneadvice. It already very much leans objective when it comes to amps and dacs. There are a lot of people new to the headphone hobby asking advice about amps and dacs who can be persuaded to listen to reason.

Similarly at r/budgetaudiophile when it comes to speaker equipment.

In other words, the amount of energy expended here on hwest could have persuaded several people to avoid the audiophile alternate reality. It's much more productive to build a new generation of audio enthusiasts who understand the value of measurements and the problems with perceptual bias. Rather than arguing with those who drank the Kool-Aid a long time ago.
Undoubtedly some of the majic happens here but I can't find all the measurements details online or I would provide them.
Independent Power Supplies: The Onkyo AV preamplifier employs A massive toroidal transformer with separate EI transformers for audio/video processing.

Advanced Circuitry: The Onkyo PR-SC5530 AV preamplifier incorporates a variety of advanced circuitry to eliminate jitter & distortion for cleaner, clearer sound reproduction.
  • VLSC (Vector Linear Shaping Circuitry): Conventional D/A conversion methods reduce digital pulse noise at the conversion stage, but can't remove it completely. Previously only found on higher-end components, VLSC (Vector Linear Shaping Circuitry) employs a unique D/A conversion circuit to overcome this problem. Data is converted between sampling points and these points are joined with analog vectors in real-time to produce a smooth output wave form. The result is a virtually noiseless, smooth analog signal based on the digital source to bring out even the most subtle of nuances in your music, movie soundtracks, and even MP3.
  • PLL (Phase Locked Loop) Jitter-Cleaning Circuit Technology: PLL jitter-cleaning circuit technology reduces jitter by comparing the input and output phases of the digital signal and creating an accurate clock waveform. This enhances the precision of digital signal processing and noticeably improves audio quality. Jitter-cleaning technology works both for digital signals input via HDMI and for digital signals converted from analog signals inside the preamplifier itself.
  • Linear Optimum Gain Volume Circuitry: Linear Optimum Gain Volume Control adjusts the gain so that less than half the amount of attenuation is needed, ensuring the signal never comes close to the noise floor. This protects the signal against noise, resulting in a dramatically clearer sound.
32-Bit DSP Engine & DACs: The Onkyo PR-SC5530 AV preamplifier employs dual 32-Bit digital signal processing and utilizes seven discrete 32-bit TI Burr-Brown DACs for optimum performance.
  • Dual 32-Bit DSP Engine: The Onkyo preamplifier is equipped with a powerful and highly accurate dual 32-bit DSP (Digital Signal Processor) for better surround sound reproduction.
  • 32-Bit TI Burr-Brown DACs (Digital-to-Analog Converters): This preamplifier is equipped with seven discrete 192 kHz/32-bit TI Burr-Brown digital-to-analog converters to decode & playback high-resolution recordings with less jitter and clearer sound. These next-generation DACs employ an advanced Texas Instruments (TI) architecture to achieve excellent dynamic performance & improved tolerance to clock jitter.
Immersive Surround Sound: The Onkyo PR-SC5530 AV preamplifier goes beyond regular surround with the latest immersive surround sound formats, like Dolby Atmos & Dolby Surround.
 
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