Why haven't subjectivists and objectivists met to do a live ABX test?

[HarmonicTHD]

The problem is that it never even gets to a serious decision between items under test. When before the test the testee (moron?) says, the difference is night and day, I could tell any time anywhere. In fact it is so easy my 8 year old can tell a difference. You have to be deaf not to hear it. Then after the blind test is failed miserably, the excuses start.
A "few" people have stated publicly (Amir and myself and others) in this great site that they were tuning in a stereo or subwoofer or both and after hours of tinkering and getting it just right, you find out the sub was not connected or some other issue that shows you tuned nothing. You ears and brain, well technically just your brain was fooling you the entire time. The best thing to do is to walk away having learned just how fallible our hearing is. It is when the person gets quiet, acts like nothing happened and a day later denies that it ever happened. and still believes they can hear a flea fart on a close miked cat recording. So, when people are going to lie like that, you really have nothing else to say except to stop engaging with that liar, I mean person, on that subject. Return to the old "which car is faster discussions" where his mind is free to wander without insulting your intelligence and ethics.

Just sayin

Nicely put.

If people want to believe from the bottom of their heart in UFO, Flat Earths or Santa Claus etc. No test, no demonstration, no science, no nothing will change that.

So yes, let’s stop wasting time trying to convince the unwilling.

 

[Entropy]

Sorry, what kind of example is that? I read through the 3 pages quickly but did not see any proper results reported. No blind test is valid without statistical analysis. Anyone can get a few instances right. The trick is to get > 95% confidence that there was no guess. In these cases, I actually like to see 100% right seeing how people claim night and day differences. To get there, they must run the test at least 10 times. For 95% confidence, they need to get 9 answers right. I routinely run blind tests where I get 5 ot 6 right out of 10 and then get lost after that, showing that those were lucky guesses.

The last pages of that thread are just fiction. See this example:
View attachment 250371

He has this completely backward. The issue here is Schiit Yggdrasil DAC. I reviewed it in detail and found that it had clear linearity error due to truncation of 24 bit samples to its 20 bit internal resolution (dither should have been used, not truncation). Jude was pulled in to defend the company but didn't know how to run this test. Audio Precision called me to ask how the test is run and I clearly explained a) what it was and b) the filtering used in there. They then conveyed that to Jude and he runs his test. But gets different results. I then get a second sample of the same DAC and show the same problem. This second unit was sent to Schiit but they measured it after updating its firmware, resulting in better measurements than mine (likely they added dither after my findings).

The linearity test and how I run it by the way, originally was written by Audio Precision for their old analyzers. I started running it there. And when I got my new AP, I just recreated it. Folks who had only used the new AP, like Jude, naturally didn't know what it was and how to run it. So the notion that I didn't know how the test works and Jude, etc. did, is just nonsense.

So please don't go by what these people do or say there. Instead, see this video I created on how to properly run blind tests:

https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...-with-statistical-analysis.13192/#post-403033 ?

 

[fpitas]

And I don't understand how anyone can believe that making a listening test blind makes it less reliable!

Because, how can the listener tell if the DUT is prestigious or expensive?

 

[spigot]

No one wants to talk about this, but the main reason subjectivists and objectivists haven't met to do a live ABX test is because they would all end up rolling around the floor kissing. Which would be unproductive and unseemly.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

No one wants to talk about this, but the main reason subjectivists and objectivists haven't met to do a live ABX test is because they would all end up rolling around the floor kissing. Which would be unproductive and unseemly.

You got that ABX confused with XXX.

 

[kemmler3D]

I posted this in another thread but it bears repeating. The number of biases at play in an audiophool's worldview is probably high... and there are a lot to choose from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases - this list is longer than I remembered.

With all these defects in human cognition, it's a wonder we can get anything right at all.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I posted this in another thread but it bears repeating. The number of biases at play in an audiophool's worldview is probably high... and there are a lot to choose from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases - this list is longer than I remembered.

With all these defects in human cognition, it's a wonder we can get anything right at all.

I liked this quote:
"Gerd Gigerenzer has criticized the framing of cognitive biases as errors in judgment, and favors interpreting them as arising from rational deviations from logical thought."

That sums up why we have bias and why we do get things right more often than randomly. One of his ideas is with limited time and knowledge using probability only is not sufficient, efficient or as effective. The bias that we have in some common human situations is beneficial and gives us a better than random chance of choosing better rather than worse. In a modern context they also can blind us or lead us astray so that for instance with audio we are almost sure to come to wrong conclusions. In a given situation a bias is helpful to remove certain things from consideration leaving us with a reduced amount of things to choose from. Improving the chance of making a better if not always best choice.

Our emotional comfort with bias is a problem when it is leading us astray.

I don't know if you can develop a heart felt bias. But for instance whenever someone says, " I listened to bombastic A and sweet sounding B and B was way better", my first question is "Did you match levels?" That self induced bias sweeps a whole host of things off the table.

 

[kemmler3D]

In a given situation a bias is helpful to remove certain things from consideration leaving us with a reduced amount of things to choose from.

Sure, I don't disagree. Thinking is costly (takes time and energy) and we can think of biases as shortcuts to reduce the cost by X while maintaining acceptable accuracy.

However, many (maybe most) cognitive biases are identified by finding systematic errors in estimation of quantities, or systematic errors in logic. So as you note, we get into trouble when we fail to think rigorously about quantifiable things - audio being one of them.

 

[TheBatsEar]

The number of biases at play in an audiophool's worldview is probably high... and there are a lot to choose from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases

Brilliant.

"Did you match levels?"

Friendships have been ended over questions like this.

I don't participate in such discussions with my offline peers anymore. I have concluded that i am likely about as clever or dumb as the people i interact with, so if they sound stupid all the time, i probably do too.
I try only to talk with people that are far beyond me, intellectually. I may sound as dumb as before, but at least they don't.

It's not easy to be a brainlet.

 

[Deleted member 5641]

I have discovered there is a popular music forum where one risks immediate lifetime banning if even mentioning scientific testing. Which, over the years, has resulted in a forum of real loons representing audiophilia today. It's enough to make one want to sell off his own fancy gear.

 

[ahofer]

I have discovered there is a popular music forum where one risks immediate lifetime banning if even mentioning scientific testing. Which, over the years, has resulted in a forum of real loons representing audiophilia today. It's enough to make one want to sell off his own fancy gear.

While we don’t immediately ban people, we make it pretty hostile for people who want to share subjective opinions as if they were fact. It allows us to focus on what this forum values. Same for them. Plus, I can go over there, as I do with Audiogon, and not participate but have a good laugh.

So if they want a safe space to share illusions, that’s ok, right?

 

[kemmler3D]

So if they want a safe space to share illusions, that’s ok, right?

It's OK unless you take an expansive view of one's obligation to fight immoral behavior at the societal level.

The existence of these forums allow the snake oil salesmen to keep selling snake oil. They're exploiting a unique combination of placebo effect and ego-driven thinking to get people to spend a ton of money they (arguably) should not spend. This is not a surprising outcome based on what we know about human psychology, but it's a semi-unique business model.

It's similar to a casino. Casino games systematically exploit known defects in humans' ability to estimate probability or valuate outcomes. They do this to the tune of billions of dollars per year... and if they weren't regulated, they'd do it a lot more. If we don't let casinos do whatever they want, why should we let the snake-oilers do whatever they want?*

*Actually, there are false advertising laws and you could prove the cables don't work as advertised in court. However, consumers generally can't sue for false advertising, and even if they can, basically just get their money back if they win. Since nobody who doesn't already believe in the power of fancy cables buys them, nobody sues them.

 

[Deleted member 5641]

It's OK unless you take an expansive view of one's obligation to fight immoral behavior at the societal level.

The existence of these forums allow the snake oil salesmen to keep selling snake oil. They're exploiting a unique combination of placebo effect and ego-driven thinking to get people to spend a ton of money they (arguably) should not spend. This is not a surprising outcome based on what we know about human psychology, but it's a semi-unique business model.

It's similar to a casino. Casino games systematically exploit known defects in humans' ability to estimate probability or valuate outcomes. They do this to the tune of billions of dollars per year... and if they weren't regulated, they'd do it a lot more. If we don't let casinos do whatever they want, why should we let the snake-oilers do whatever they want?*

*Actually, there are false advertising laws and you could prove the cables don't work as advertised in court. However, consumers generally can't sue for false advertising, and even if they can, basically just get their money back if they win. Since nobody who doesn't already believe in the power of fancy cables buys them, nobody sues them.

Agree. It's not so much a safe space to share illusions as much as it is a honeypot for shills and snake oil merchants preying on human weakness.

 

[Chrispy]

I have discovered there is a popular music forum where one risks immediate lifetime banning if even mentioning scientific testing. Which, over the years, has resulted in a forum of real loons representing audiophilia today. It's enough to make one want to sell off his own fancy gear.

Just one? There are many.

 

[Head_Unit]

The only problem I see is that when people fail the test they will blame the quality of the switch boxes, computer EMI and the fact that their cables were moved around ...

Ah, but that is easily solved. I have special cables available, their quality is perfect and unassailable. The best part? The price, a mere $8576.34 per meter. PM me with your Dogecoin account details, I will send immediately.

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

It's OK unless you take an expansive view of one's obligation to fight immoral behavior at the societal level.

The existence of these forums allow the snake oil salesmen to keep selling snake oil. They're exploiting a unique combination of placebo effect and ego-driven thinking to get people to spend a ton of money they (arguably) should not spend. This is not a surprising outcome based on what we know about human psychology, but it's a semi-unique business model.

It's similar to a casino. Casino games systematically exploit known defects in humans' ability to estimate probability or valuate outcomes. They do this to the tune of billions of dollars per year... and if they weren't regulated, they'd do it a lot more. If we don't let casinos do whatever they want, why should we let the snake-oilers do whatever they want?*

*Actually, there are false advertising laws and you could prove the cables don't work as advertised in court. However, consumers generally can't sue for false advertising, and even if they can, basically just get their money back if they win. Since nobody who doesn't already believe in the power of fancy cables buys them, nobody sues them.

You can’t protect people from themselves?

 

[kemmler3D]

You can’t protect people from themselves?

Is this thread about people spending thousands on raw silver ingots to craft their own silver audio cables at home?

We're talking about protecting people from other people who are unfairly exploiting them by lying. Which is the basis for a whole lot of law.

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

Is this thread about people spending thousands on raw silver ingots to craft their own silver audio cables at home?

We're talking about protecting people from other people who are unfairly exploiting them by lying. Which is the basis for a whole lot of law.

Giving up any addiction can only be possible if they no longer want to do it! Some people are addicted to drink, drugs, gambling……. the list goes on and on. Many things are illegal yet people still take them, it’s very sad. Saw kids going further and further into addiction, their promises to stop came to nothing. All we could do was try to support them.

 

[kemmler3D]

Giving up any addiction can only be possible if they no longer want to do it! Some people are addicted to drink, drugs, gambling……. the list goes on and on. Many things are illegal yet people still take them, it’s very sad. Saw kids going further and further into addiction, their promises to stop came to nothing. All we could do was try to support them.

Yes, but I'm not talking about addiction. I would not say people are addicted to audiophool gear in any traditional sense.

I'm talking about fraud, more or less.


A better analogy would be a ponzi scheme or "healing crystals". If the sellers of these products were truly honest about what they actually are, nobody would buy them. It is the same with fancy cables or "costs more than a nice car" amps.

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

Yes, but I'm not talking about addiction. I would not say people are addicted to audiophool gear in any traditional sense.

I'm talking about fraud, more or less.


A better analogy would be a ponzi scheme or "healing crystals". If the sellers of these products were truly honest about what they actually are, nobody would buy them. It is the same with fancy cables or "costs more than a nice car" amps.

How would you classified someone spending £6.5k on a 1 metre USB cable? I would class them as having an addictive personality.