Why haven't subjectivists and objectivists met to do a live ABX test?

[Spocko]

I partly agree, but also the objective approach is a journey. This journeys objective is not only about reaching the destination, but also about gaining understanding. For people passionate about engineering the aspect of understanding might even be more important. The objective route is the toughest one and less entertaining. Most people prefer a shortcut and get lost.

True, I see that too. Sometimes, it just feels a bit comical when people are arguing over the virtues of one DAC over another when the margin of improvement is literally inaudible, but the feat of engineering for the sake of engineering (although truly impressive and deserving of the cost required for such an accomplishment) strays from the actual needs of the end user (UI, ergonomics, quality of life features).

 

[Spocko]

I would argue the journey is only unpredictable if you don't (want to) learn the facts. If you decide to drive cross-country without looking at a map, you might make it, but you'll waste a lot of time and money getting there... And yes, you might have a lot more fun in the process. Or you might go broke. There's something to be said for going by feel alone, but the results are much less predictable...

I think the subjectivists want to keep thinking about gear.

Objectivists, in theory, would like to find the right gear, and then stop thinking about gear, because they know for a fact they have the right gear. The weird thing is, we don't stop thinking about it...

Maybe it's like the romance of traveling on Route 66 - the vision is a bit more glamorous than the actual trip on broken roads with no gas stations in sight?

 

[ahofer]

This is how it goes

 

[Deleted member 5641]

This is how it goes

Comedy gold! This is like debating on the Hoffman forums.

 

[Keith_W]

Sigh, yesterday someone came over to have a listen to my system. For those who don't know, it is completely digital and corrected with DSP by Acourate. This guy considers himself a bit of an expert, when I visited him he has 3-4 turntables, cable elevators, an Uptone EtherRegen, and he is considering either an Audio Note or a Shindo preamp. When we sat down to listen, I noticed that he had a stack of books in front of the tweeter on his DIY horn speakers, so I got up to remove them. When I did so, I noticed that he did not attempt to physically time align the horns (for him, all he needed to do was slide his tweeter box on top of his bass enclosure). Well, you know the type.

Anyway, from the get go he said that there's something wrong with the crossover. I showed him several measurements which showed that the FR at the crossover slope was fine.

Then he said it sounded "phasey". I showed him the result of Acourate's phase alignment and there was objectively no issue with the phase.

Then he said "it sounds sterile". I replied "one man's lack of coloration is another man's sterile".

So I said, i'll try something and see if you like the result better. I turned on a VST that simulates vinyl compression, record warp, and crosstalk, and another VST which adds 2nd order harmonic distortion. He went WOW that sounds much better! What did you do?

I replied "one man's coloration is another man's normal".

So yeah, same hobby, but completely different way of thinking.

 

[pablolie]

I think the correct methodology would be that the subject brings his own amps and headphones.

Amir or someone with measurement gear tests the amps to ensure they’re functioning properly and measuring well.

Amir or tester provides ABX switching mechanism.

Set a number of attempts (20?)

Boom. Should honestly take an hour or two?

Ther are plenty of online tests to do that. And convince yourself pretty easily there is a law of diminishing results, and that beyond that nothing stands in the way of fully enjoying music (other than misplaced obsession about gear that may be 0.5dB more "resolving" or" "forgiving" or "musical" etc)...

 

[pablolie]

Sigh, yesterday someone came over to have a listen to my system. For those who don't know, it is completely digital and corrected with DSP by Acourate. This guy considers himself a bit of an expert, when I visited him he has 3-4 turntables, cable elevators, a valve amplifier that he modified to "sound better", and he is considering either an Audio Note or a Shindo preamp. He told me that it is important to properly position the cable elevators because it's not enough to lift the cable from the floor. When we sat down to listen, I noticed that he had a stack of books in front of the tweeter on his DIY horn speakers, so I got up to remove them. When I did so, I noticed that he did not attempt to physically time align the horns (for him, all he needed to do was slide his tweeter box on top of his bass enclosure). Well, you know the type.

Anyway, from the get go he said that there's something wrong with the crossover. I showed him several measurements which showed that the FR at the crossover slope was fine.

Then he said it sounded "phasey". I showed him the result of Acourate's phase alignment and there was objectively no issue with the phase.

Then he said "it sounds sterile". I replied "one man's lack of coloration is another man's sterile".

So I said, i'll try something and see if you like the result better. I turned on a VST I have simulates vinyl compression, record warp, and crosstalk, and another VST which adds 2nd order harmonic distortion. He went WOW that sounds much better! What did you do?

I replied "one man's coloration is another man's normal".

So yeah, same hobby, but completely different way of thinking.

Now there is a "friend" I'd never invite to my place... :-D

 

[thecheapseats]

What is it about audio that makes people so foolish to start with, though? One never hears about $100k window air conditioners, for example.

I see this with hobbyists in many different hobby pursuits - cars, consumer-audio, musical instruments, many other 'things'...

they will buy the stuff they dreamed about when they were young, but couldn't afford at that time - even if newer, more technically advanced versions of those products exist today... they want the 'old' original stuff...

and that alone can make them foolish buyers... add some hype and some snake oil to the mix? - and they are easy 'prey'...

 

[thecheapseats]

...I replied "one man's coloration is another man's normal".

So yeah, same hobby, but completely different way of thinking.

makes sense... to your friend...

 

[rsoffer]

Why haven't subjectivists and objectivists met to do a live ABX test?​

I believe the answer is quite simple. "Subjectivists" are about the audiophile journey not necessarily audio perfection (even though they claim otherwise). They want to hear different, they want to hear "warmth" one day, "transparency" the next, they want to enjoy different preference curves and different speakers and gear because hobbies are about spending money to discover new things and it's not limited to discovering new music, but rather discovering new interpretations of that music through different gear: horn speakers, electrostatics, coaxial, etc. On the other hand, Objectivists have one singular focus: absolutely faithfulness to the source signal defined by SINAD and perfect frequency curves/dispersion. The former values the unpredictable adventure of the audio journey, the latter seeks only the destination. And since a live ABX test is ONLY about the destination, Subjectivists by definition would not enjoy it so give every excuse possible to avoid it.

I'm a subjectivist in the sense that I knowingly buy speakers that aren't perfect but just enjoy them because they look great but for my studio work where it's all about the destination, then I only buy proven performers like Genelec (although I recently strayed and got the iLoud Precision because I was bored!) and RME.

This seems like a pretty unfair characterization. Most objectivists would love it if most of these amps sounded different and there was more to explore.

We all enjoy the journey, the issue is that you're standing on a treadmill blindfolded, believing you're going somewhere when actually you're stationary. If we're going to journey, we actually want to know we're experiencing something different from one piece of gear to the next.

If you just want to pretend that's the case, that's more about delusion than a preference for adventure.

 

[sonitus mirus]

As an ardent objectivist amidst numerous audio enthusiast communities, my primary focus lies in delving into the realm of music itself rather than getting lost in the intricate labyrinth of equipment. I find little enjoyment in embarking on a journey that appears deliberately convoluted, often orchestrated by marketers and businesses. Instead, my passion lies in exploring the very essence of music.

 

[Newman]

IMHO it is neither objectivist nor subjectivist to believe that the amplifier's job is to act like a straight wire with gain and be sonically transparent. And if amplifiers are achieving that, to the limits of human audibility, then it is neither objectivist nor subjectivist to recognise and celebrate that.

The split occurs when a particular branch of subjectivism goes all anti-science, and refuses to acknowledge that the sighted listening effect applies to audio gear comparisons, and thereby insists that sonic perceptions when comparing amps in sighted listening sessions are caused by the effect the amplifiers are having on the sound waves. Let's call this branch Sighted Listening Subjectivism. It's just a branch: it is not the whole field of subjectivism in audio. So, this is a split within subjectivism, not between subjectivism and objectivism.

Unfortunately but understandably, Sighted Listening Subjectivism is the default position for people new to the audio hobby, ie that casual sighted listening is all about the sound waves. One has to learn one's way out of this "I trust my ears, sighted" position. One learns a lot about oneself along the way, and about one's own attitude to inconvenient truths. For many, it is too inconvenient, they are too resistant, and they are having too much fun (and have misdirected too much money on the hobby) thinking that sighted listening is telling them the truth about the sound-wave contributions of audio components. They become denialistic.

But IMHO if one progresses beyond Sighted Listening Subjectivism, that does not automatically mean one becomes an audio objectivist. Especially not the type of objectivism that is portrayed as choosing gear based entirely on measurements, even if the differences in measurements are well beyond audible thresholds. People paint these things too black and white. One can be an audio subjectivist who does not subscribe to Sighted Listening Subjectivism, but still prefers to choose audio gear based on personal listening experiences, some blind, some sighted, and acknowledging that their sighted experiences are dominated by non-sonic factors.

cheers

 

[TimF]

Is there a taste to pure water?

Is the flavor of the soup more influenced by the intentions of the cook or the intentions (conscious or not) of he who is dining? The tone of the color red is determined by the adjacent colors. What I hear in a piece of music, suppose I am concentrating on certain bass tones, changes in my perception when the complex of adjacent tones in the piece change. I tell you, the tone of the trumpet playing a certain tone changes when that tone is accompanied by different combinations of instruments playing different notes. Again, Aegean Blue is appreciated differently when it is surrounded by complimentary colors vs. when it is surrounded by contrasting colors. There is an absolute Aegean Blue but in perception that tone changes when in the company of other colors. Let us call it perceptual resonances. Perceptual resonances that I melt over and there are perceptual resonances that grate like Donald Trump grates me.

Science is difficult to achieve, and maybe more difficult to believe. For these ABX tests you must set them up carefully but maybe you also need 'line judges.'

 

[Rja4000]

In that link above, he claims its very easy to tell the difference between those budget Magni amps. Wouldn't it be even easier to tell with a super high end amp vs. a budget well measuring amp?

If an amp is measuring good enough, it may be considered sonically transparent.
Of course, if 2 amps are both sonically transparent, it will be, per definition, impossible to tell them appart.

To have an audibly different product, you have to introduce (significant) measurable differences: higher noise, distortion, ...
Some high end brands don't hesitate to do that to sale hardware at a higher price.

 

[fpitas]

Is there a taste to pure water?

Deionized sure tastes funny!

/

 

[fpitas]

I have to think most sonic "differences" in modern amps are a feature of the listener's imagination.

 

[Keith_W]

I have to think most sonic "differences" in modern amps are a feature of the listener's imagination.

Tough crowd

 

[fpitas]

Tough crowd

Most ears just aren't that good, I'm afraid. I'm perfectly happy if someone wants to love the warmth or whatever, but I fear it will disappear in a blind test.

 

[Keith_W]

I thought you would scold me for stealing your line!

 

[fpitas]

I thought you would scold me for stealing your line!

Used appropriately it's, well, appropriate