Why haven't subjectivists and objectivists met to do a live ABX test?

[kemmler3D]

There are two reasons why fraud doesn't typically apply with audiophile nonsense. Fraud requires mens rea - that is, intention to defraud, which requires that the seller not believe his own bullshit. There are definitely examples of genuine scammers who don't believe their own BS in the audiophile world, but more often than not, the people selling this BS actually believe at least a substantial portion of it themselves.

The other issue is separating what's known in the law around advertising and consumer protection as "advertising puffery" from fraudulent claims. If I sell you a $10,000 silver cable with a bunch of fancy insulation and say "it'll make your stereo sound better", and you actually *receive* a silver cable with a bunch of fancy insulation, there's a fairly strong argument that the asserting "it'll make your stereo sound better!" is advertising puffery. Generally when you're selling products, you're allowed to say "this product is better than that product!" when there's an element of subjective preference involved.

Where it would be actual fraud is if you sold something as a silver cable with a bunch of fancy insulation and it was just a bog-standard aluminum wire wrapped in some fancy heat shrink.

All correct here, I mainly mean fraud in the colloquial sense.

 

[kemmler3D]

Obviously accuracy isn't of prime importance to the watch aficionados and they seem OK with that.

Perfect accuracy in timekeeping is 1) pretty trivial to verify and 2) not affected by placebo / expectation bias and 3) not that interesting, whether or not you have it.

In audio, none of those are true. However, suppose accurate sound was as simple as accurate time. People would still be into the hobby, they'd just be dealing with aesthetics and interesting technical implementations instead of actual performance, same as watches. But there wouldn't be a snake oil problem anymore. Ah, the dream...

 

[Keith_W]

What is it about audio that makes people so foolish to start with, though? One never hears about $100k window air conditioners, for example.

I don't know about air conditioners, but here are some luxury whitegoods:

- Fridges: Sub-Zero, Meneghini, Liebherr. My fridge (a Fischer & Paykel) costs $2000. Those other fridges start at $20,000 and up. This is a Sub-Zero fridge:

- Ovens and stovetops: La Cornue, Molteni, Wolf. My oven/stove (an Ilve) cost $4500. This Molteni is about $500,000:

- Kitchen appliances: Casa Bugatti (not to be confused with the car manufacturer). I own one of these kettles:

- Ever seen a luxury rubbish bin? Check out this Giobagnara. Yours for $2,645:

 

[Mr. Widget]

Perfect accuracy in timekeeping is 1) pretty trivial to verify and ...

Very interesting point. There are many here who obviously find the art and science of testing an end in itself.

I tend to forget that. To me measurements are like brushing your teeth... mild drudgery but necessary.

 

[Geert]

What is it about audio that makes people so foolish to start with, though?

The belief in an audiophile nirvana, created by marketeers, reviewers and audiophiles with too much fantasy and good story telling skills who want to make you believe you can upgrade your stereo system to a point where all veils are lifted and you get the illusion you're sitting between live musicians.

 

[fpitas]

How about subjectivists vs. objectivists in the watch appreciating and collecting hobby? Obviously accuracy isn't of prime importance to the watch aficionados and they seem OK with that.

I sort of dismiss watches as jewelry, which means it has no practical purpose.

 

[Mart68]

How about subjectivists vs. objectivists in the watch appreciating and collecting hobby? Obviously accuracy isn't of prime importance to the watch aficionados and they seem OK with that.

The only parallel I could think of is someone claiming a particular watch keeps better time - even though it demonstrably doesn't - because the behaviour of time is not yet fully understood.

 

[fpitas]

The only parallel I could think of is someone claiming a particular watch keeps better time - even though it demonstrably doesn't - because the behaviour of time is not yet fully understood.

Relativity gets time all messed up. Gotta be some snake oil there.

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

What is it about audio that makes people so foolish to start with, though? One never hears about $100k window air conditioners, for example.

It isn’t just audio what about watches? Some of them cost hundreds of thousands of pounds, all of my watches (10+). cost less than £100 and keep perfect time. There are other examples i’s consumerism gone mad. Regarding HiFi wouldn‘t buy anything that looked like it was made in someone’s shed. As an example vinyl wrap on a speaker doesn’t adversely affect sound quality. I would always pay the extra for a nice wood veneer or lacquer finish. The question of spending on audio isn’t as stupid as most of the posts suggest.

 

[Mart68]

Relativity gets time all messed up. Gotta be some snake oil there.

Time passes far more quickly when discussing snake-oil on an audio forum than it does when, say, waiting for a bus in the cold and rain.

A benevolent God would surely not allow that.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Why haven't subjectivists and objectivists met to do a live ABX test?​

Look at the discussions in this place. Then think about that 90 % here are objectivists. Then try to imagine how an agreement on a test would go between objectivists and subjectivists.

 

[Mart68]

It isn’t just audio what about watches? Some of them cost hundreds of thousands of pounds, all of my watches (10+). cost less than £100 and keep perfect time. There are other examples i’s consumerism gone mad. Regarding HiFi wouldn‘t buy anything that looked like it was made in someone’s shed. As an example vinyl wrap on a speaker doesn’t adversely affect sound quality. I would always pay the extra for a nice wood veneer or lacquer finish. The question of spending on audio isn’t as stupid as most of the posts suggest.

There's a difference between spending extra for something you want, like real wood veneer, and spending extra for something that is pure fantasy.

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

There's a difference between spending extra for something you want, like real wood veneer, and spending extra for something that is pure fantasy.

Have you seen the post with the Bugatti kettle? A few years ago a Bugatti rally stopped in our village got talking to an owner and got invited to their evening stop and display. It was a worldwide event and there must have been close to £1 billions worth of cars there. Try telling any of them modern cars are much better (they are) and why not buy one instead! There is such a thing as pride in ownership.
Why are men attracted to beautiful women, practically speaking are they better any others who are less attractive?

 

[Mart68]

Have you seen the post with the Bugatti kettle? A few years ago a Bugatti rally stopped in our village got talking to an owner and got invited to their evening stop and display. It was a worldwide event and there must have been close to £1 billions worth of cars there. Try telling any of them modern cars are much better (they are) and why not buy one instead! There is such a thing as pride in ownership.
Why are men attracted to beautiful women, practically speaking are they better any others who are less attractive?

I completely agree. 'I just want it' is a perfectly acceptable reason for buying something. But if the Bugatti owner told you he bought it because it could fly, or turn invisible, what would you think then?

 

[Spkrdctr]

214 posts and no one has found the correct answer that the audio community has already found. It explains just about everything in audio so even the simple minded can understand why spending mega bucks on audio is necessary. It is one word "Synergy". There I have done my work for today!

If you have any audio question, just say synergy and the answer will pop into your mind.........maybe.

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

I completely agree. 'I just want it' is a perfectly acceptable reason for buying something. But if the Bugatti owner told you he bought it because it could fly, or turn invisible, what would you think then?

Good point!
As long as you are sensible and realise why you’re buying it everyone is entitled to spend their money anyway they want. Anything else is fraud and can be dangerous. Self delusion is prevalent in society and it isn’t just audiophiles. Lots of kids around here buy themselves cheap, old small cars and several have been killed driving too fast. Generally poorly maintained with the handling problems inherent in small wheelbase cars, they suddenly lose it going around bends no warning just gone. Most people I know who buy overpriced HiFi kit don‘t need convincing, they just want it!

 

[Keith_W]

Why are men attracted to beautiful women, practically speaking are they better any others who are less attractive?

You have a point there. This guy is right. I have dated my share of beautiful women and they have all been crazy.

 

[fpitas]

214 posts and no one has found the correct answer that the audio community has already found. It explains just about everything in audio so only the simple minded can understand why spending mega bucks on audio is necessary. It is one word "Synergy". There I have done my work for today!

If you have any audio question, just say synergy and the answer will pop into your mind.........maybe.

Fixed that for you.

 

[Mr. Widget]

I sort of dismiss watches as jewelry, which means it has no practical purpose.

I agree 100%.
I feel the same way about audiophile cables... most are simply expensive jewelry. That's why I don't get all bent by the ridiculous prices.

 

[Mart68]

Good point!
As long as you are sensible and realise why you’re buying it everyone is entitled to spend their money anyway they want. Anything else is fraud and can be dangerous. Self delusion is prevalent in society and it isn’t just audiophiles. Lots of kids around here buy themselves cheap, old small cars and several have been killed driving too fast. Generally poorly maintained with the handling problems inherent in small wheelbase cars, they suddenly lose it going around bends no warning just gone. Most people I know who buy overpriced HiFi kit don‘t need convincing, they just want it!

Reminds me of a youth I worked with who borrowed five grand from the bank, spent four grand on an Astra GTE (this was 30 years ago) and a grand on third party insurance.

Wrapped it round a lamp post on his first trip out, total write off. He was okay but he still had five years worth of loan repayments to make. For nothing.