Why haven't subjectivists and objectivists met to do a live ABX test?

[Chrispy]

How would you classified someone spending £6.5k on a 1 metre USB cable? I would class them as having an addictive personality.

Yeah I can see audiophilia being addictive. Consuming is an addiction of many.

 

[krabapple]

Tiefenbrun/Lipshitz is another.

described here by Stanley Lipshitz:

The Digital Challenge A Report By Stanley P. Lipshitz

The Digital Challenge A Report By Stanley P. Lipshitz, Enjoy the Music.com Review Magazine

www.enjoythemusic.com

 

[krabapple]

My take on the A/B/X test is "hey no need to hurry." I've posted elsewhere, hide you amp or cables or whatever. Listen, listen, listen. Each time you listen make some notes about how the system sounds. At some random time when you are out, someone comes and swaps something. Do you notice? No "evil" A/B/X box screwing up the synergy, no hurried comparison, no unfamiliar environment.

That would be a lousy test unless 'someone' also verified that levels were carefully matched, before you came back.

As far as taking a long time to do a blind test: go for it, folks! Listen, listen, listen, sighted, as long as you want. Sit still doing nothing, or take notes, dance, throw a party, burn incense, plant tulips in your window garden, whatever works best for you. Do it until you are SURE you can hear that difference.

Then, at last, do a double blind level-matched comparison. 16 trials minimum. Let us know how that turns out.

 

[kemmler3D]

How would you classified someone spending £6.5k on a 1 metre USB cable? I would class them as having an addictive personality.

Well, maybe they're addicted to something, or maybe they're just misled. I guess if people are being tricked into getting addicted to expensive cables... isn't that WORSE?

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

Well, maybe they're addicted to something, or maybe they're just misled. I guess if people are being tricked into getting addicted to expensive cables... isn't that WORSE?

The sort of people who spend outrageous money on HiFi must be wealthy and exhibit compulsive disorder behaviour. Their personality trait may have served them well in business. There’s also quite often a pissing contest going on. Did some business with a West End of London dealer, the tales they used to tell of City Bankers at bonus time, coming in pissed and splashing the cash.

 

[kemmler3D]

The sort of people who spend outrageous money on HiFi must be wealthy and exhibit compulsive disorder behaviour.

Disagree, neither one is a requirement for being ripped off by audio manufacturers, and many of the 'victims' do not fit that profile in any way.

Go on Reddit and you'll find plenty of young folks in their 20s, without too much money, ($1-2K Audeze will be the biggest purchase they've ever made, not just in audio gear, in many cases), spending $$$ on aftermarket headphone cables, simply because they care about audio and have been lied to about the effect cables have on sound.

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

Disagree, neither one is a requirement for being ripped off by audio manufacturers, and many of the 'victims' do not fit that profile in any way.

Go on Reddit and you'll find plenty of young folks in their 20s, without too much money, ($1-2K Audeze will be the biggest purchase they've ever made, not just in audio gear, in many cases), spending $$$ on aftermarket headphone cables, simply because they care about audio and have been lied to about the effect cables have on sound.

With the younger set it’s getting one over on your mates. Think they come into the same category as the city bankers I mentione.

 

[kemmler3D]

With the younger set it’s getting one over on your mates. Think they come into the same category as the city bankers I mentione.

Honestly, I think you are mostly or entirely wrong about that. What they say is they're buying these things because of an honest belief that it will improve the sound.

If a semi-broke 25-year-old buys a $400 headphone cable and brags about it, my guess is most of his friends will think he's a moron, not a player.

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

Honestly, I think you are mostly or entirely wrong about that. What they say is they're buying these things because of an honest belief that it will improve the sound.

If a semi-broke 25-year-old buys a $400 headphone cable and brags about it, my guess is most of his friends will think he's a moron, not a player.

Got a friend who worked for a well known charity giving help to people in distress. Many of the young people she saw were students, suddenly they’ve got their student loan and WOW it seems like a fortune out they go splashing the cash. A few months later nothing left, with rent and other bills piling up………..

 

[kemmler3D]

Got a friend who worked for a well known charity giving help to people in distress. Many of the young people she saw were students, suddenly they’ve got their student loan and WOW it seems like a fortune out they go splashing the cash. A few months later nothing left, with rent and other bills piling up………..

To take it all the way back to the original point, I don't think the existence of young people who are irresponsible with money implies or even partially supports the idea that some audio manufacturers aren't unethically exploiting people.

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

To take it all the way back to the original point, I don't think the existence of young people who are irresponsible with money implies or even partially supports the idea that some audio manufacturers aren't unethically exploiting people.

Drug dealers exploit people, cigarette manufacturers exploit people, some HiFi manufacturers and dealers exploit people it’s all about money.

 

[Spocko]

Why haven't subjectivists and objectivists met to do a live ABX test?​

I believe the answer is quite simple. "Subjectivists" are about the audiophile journey not necessarily audio perfection (even though they claim otherwise). They want to hear different, they want to hear "warmth" one day, "transparency" the next, they want to enjoy different preference curves and different speakers and gear because hobbies are about spending money to discover new things and it's not limited to discovering new music, but rather discovering new interpretations of that music through different gear: horn speakers, electrostatics, coaxial, etc. On the other hand, Objectivists have one singular focus: absolutely faithfulness to the source signal defined by SINAD and perfect frequency curves/dispersion. The former values the unpredictable adventure of the audio journey, the latter seeks only the destination. And since a live ABX test is ONLY about the destination, Subjectivists by definition would not enjoy it so give every excuse possible to avoid it.

I'm a subjectivist in the sense that I knowingly buy speakers that aren't perfect but just enjoy them because they look great but for my studio work where it's all about the destination, then I only buy proven performers like Genelec (although I recently strayed and got the iLoud Precision because I was bored!) and RME.

 

[Geert]

Objectivists have one singular focus: absolutely faithfulness to the source signal defined by SINAD and perfect frequency curves/dispersion. The former values the unpredictable adventure of the audio journey, the latter seeks only the destination.

I partly agree, but also the objective approach is a journey. This journeys objective is not only about reaching the destination, but also about gaining understanding. For people passionate about engineering the aspect of understanding might even be more important. The objective route is the toughest one and less entertaining. Most people prefer a shortcut and get lost.

 

[fpitas]

What is it about audio that makes people so foolish to start with, though? One never hears about $100k window air conditioners, for example.

 

[kemmler3D]

What is it about audio that makes people so foolish to start with, though?

It's a good question. My opinion is there are many factors:

1. Audio reproduction is simple enough that you can easily feel like you understand it, but complicated enough that it's really hard to actually understand it*.
2. It's hard for most people to tell the difference between people who know what they're talking about and people who merely sound like they do.
3. There is some direct relationship between price and quality, but it's a very "noisy" relationship.
4. (maybe most important) Placebo effect in audio has a similar (often greater) strength/size of effect to actual measurable differences between components of different prices.
5. There is an aesthetic component in audio gear that's strong enough to drive purchase by itself, but also drive placebo effects.
6. There are some "crazy expensive" audio purchases that are justifiable (Revel Salon 2) in the same price range as purchases that are unjustifiable (Audioquest cables), but due to the aforementioned 5 factors, many people can't tell the difference and spend money on the wrong thing.

Air conditioners don't really suffer from any of these factors. However, medicine does. And in medicine, you see a very healthy market in homeopathic remedies, which are a VERY strong analog for audiophool gear.

*I took a minor on music tech in college and I'm still learning stuff 20 years later, without much of a break in engaging with the subject. It's no wonder that most of the real authorities on sound are pretty old...

 

[kemmler3D]

The former values the unpredictable adventure of the audio journey, the latter seeks only the destination

I would argue the journey is only unpredictable if you don't (want to) learn the facts. If you decide to drive cross-country without looking at a map, you might make it, but you'll waste a lot of time and money getting there... And yes, you might have a lot more fun in the process. Or you might go broke. There's something to be said for going by feel alone, but the results are much less predictable...

I think the subjectivists want to keep thinking about gear.

Objectivists, in theory, would like to find the right gear, and then stop thinking about gear, because they know for a fact they have the right gear. The weird thing is, we don't stop thinking about it...

 

[Keith_W]

I also have a simple answer:

Subjectivists have no interest in doing DBT's because if they are told that xxx makes a difference, they have no problem believing it. And even if they do a DBT (and the result is positive), it will be dismissed by objectivists as being insufficiently scientifically rigorous (see this recent thread).

Objectivists are the ones demanding that others do DBT's, but have little interest in doing it themselves. They only want subjectivists to do it. And even if objectivists do a DBT (and the result is negative), it has no persuasive power for subjectivists because it will be dismissed as "you can't hear well enough" or "your system isn't resolving enough". For example, if one of us were to do a DBT showing no audible difference in amps, subjectivists would be astonished and would never believe the result.

In short, neither camp believes in the DBT results of the other. So why even bother.

 

[sonitus mirus]

What is it about audio that makes people so foolish to start with, though? One never hears about $100k window air conditioners, for example.

The reasons behind frivolous spending on audio equipment are often discussed in these forums and include:

1. Expectation bias

2. Placebo effect

3. Psychoacoustics

4. Lack of controlled testing

5. Marketing and social influences

6. Emotional attachment

In contrast, factors like room air conditioners and other common appliances might not generate similar spending habits due to the following reasons:

1. Niche interest: Audiophile culture is a niche interest. People passionate about high-quality audio equipment are more likely to spend large sums of money in pursuit of the ideal listening experience. Other appliances may not have such dedicated communities, making enthusiasts' spending habits less visible or widely discussed.

2. Subjectivity: Perception of audio quality is highly subjective, influenced by personal preferences, hearing ability, and listening environment. This subjectivity can create a wider range of opinions and debates, which may not be present in other appliance markets where objective performance measures are more easily defined.

3. Marketing and perceived value: High-end audio equipment often carries prestige and is marketed to convey exclusivity and luxury. This can lead to inflated prices and the belief that expensive gear must inherently be superior. Other appliances may not have the same level of marketing emphasis on luxury and exclusivity, making it less likely for consumers to overspend based on perceived value.

4. Complexity: Audio systems can be complex, with multiple components and variables contributing to the overall listening experience. This complexity may make it harder for consumers to objectively evaluate and compare audio equipment, potentially leading to more spending in pursuit of better performance. Other appliances might be simpler in design and function, making it easier for consumers to make informed decisions without overspending.

5. Incremental improvements: The pursuit of audio perfection can lead some enthusiasts to continuously upgrade their equipment in search of incremental improvements in sound quality. This may not be as common with other appliances, where functional upgrades might be more easily discernible and less frequent.

It is worth noting that similar spending habits can be observed in other specialized hobbies and interests, such as photography, gaming, or home theater systems. People who are passionate about a particular area may be more likely to invest significant amounts of money in pursuit of better performance or experiences.

 

[SuicideSquid]

Yes, but I'm not talking about addiction. I would not say people are addicted to audiophool gear in any traditional sense.

I'm talking about fraud, more or less.


A better analogy would be a ponzi scheme or "healing crystals". If the sellers of these products were truly honest about what they actually are, nobody would buy them. It is the same with fancy cables or "costs more than a nice car" amps.

There are two reasons why fraud doesn't typically apply with audiophile nonsense. Fraud requires mens rea - that is, intention to defraud, which requires that the seller not believe his own bullshit. There are definitely examples of genuine scammers who don't believe their own BS in the audiophile world, but more often than not, the people selling this BS actually believe at least a substantial portion of it themselves.

The other issue is separating what's known in the law around advertising and consumer protection as "advertising puffery" from fraudulent claims. If I sell you a $10,000 silver cable with a bunch of fancy insulation and say "it'll make your stereo sound better", and you actually *receive* a silver cable with a bunch of fancy insulation, there's a fairly strong argument that the asserting "it'll make your stereo sound better!" is advertising puffery. Generally when you're selling products, you're allowed to say "this product is better than that product!" when there's an element of subjective preference involved.

Where it would be actual fraud is if you sold something as a silver cable with a bunch of fancy insulation and it was just a bog-standard aluminum wire wrapped in some fancy heat shrink.

 

[Mr. Widget]

What is it about audio that makes people so foolish to start with, though? One never hears about $100k window air conditioners, for example.

How about subjectivists vs. objectivists in the watch appreciating and collecting hobby? Obviously accuracy isn't of prime importance to the watch aficionados and they seem OK with that.