Why haven't subjectivists and objectivists met to do a live ABX test?

[Spocko]

Yes, Nelson has been very vocal about this evidence-free claim. And has, of course, also offered zero evidence, just assertion.

No doubt, and that's why I pointed him out because he's better than any "strawman" - but an actual amplifier designer who is a self-proclaimed subjectivist that's published his beliefs on the matter, and unabashedly creates products consistent with these beliefs. To me, Nelson represents the subjectivist ideal as he sells products created specifically for subjectivists - measurements be damned.

To be clear, I am NOT a subjectivist and do appreciate the importance of measurements especially controlled directivity and dispersion patterns, and whenever possible apply room correction in order to accomplish an accurate frequency curve. But this doesn't stop me from wanting to buy McIntosh tube amplifiers because they look so hypnotic even when not playing music!

 

[Spocko]

You just go with what makes sense, these amps simplify amplify the signal and most of them sound the same. It's up to the manufacturers, the reviewers, and whoever else claims they're hearing these night and day differences to show they can reliably pick up on them in blind testing. Not each individual consumer.

You don't see even one reviewer doing blind testing on video in a controlled way. Why do you think that is?

• I couldn't agree more that our hearing will be unable to pick up the differences between amplifiers (tube or SS) if they are properly designed. Even though they may measure different, whether such differences are audible enough to be arguably unpleasant borders on irrelevance as other things are more important: price, appearance, usability, reliability, etc.
• Actually, doing a "blind test" on YouTube or anywhere else is still rife with faith: they can easily set up a legit blind test only to lie to your face "OMG, even in this blind test I can tell that the better amplifier is THIS, and *uneveiling* yep, it is the tube amp!" Even if unpaid, judges all have their personal agendas that may have nothing to do with remuneration. It could be for shock value, entertainment, etc.

At the end of the day, we're all subjectivists to a certain degree because we make a judgement call based on faith or as you say to "go with what makes sense" based on the assumption that these amps mostly "sound the same". This is basically what I do too! By the way, it was this principle that led me to include the Dynaudio Core Pro monitors on my shortlist only to find that they measured badly only to then discover that Dynaudio didn't even use their amazing anechoic chamber to design these speakers. My faith was met with disappointment! From that point forward, I only considered Genelec and Neumann pro monitors for work.

 

[Spocko]

I suspect there's more of this going on than anyone can discern.

Jim

As a professional YouTuber myself, I seek to inform and entertain, but do not entertain at the cost of accurate information (although I do get things wrong occasionally, it happens) - that being said, it would not surprise me if some youtubers focus more on "click" value than information while others have no idea what they're doing. And sometimes, it really doesn't matter: case in point would be comparing 2 budget 5" speakers, let's say Polk vs Elac vs Klipsh: ultimately, they're all excellent at what they do for the price and it really doesn't matter which you choose, so such a video would probably focus more on entertainment value and other quality of life differences over any accurate discussion of the SQ beyond the consensus generalities. Then you have serious videos discussing $15,000 amplifiers or speaker comparisons - the level of detailed considerations here is deep and facets are endless.

This is why I've stopped doing speaker reviews ROFL and only soundbars (yes I hear something over here, sub sounds deep)

 

[Spkrdctr]

As a professional YouTuber myself, I seek to inform and entertain, but do not entertain at the cost of accurate information (although I do get things wrong occasionally, it happens) - that being said, it would not surprise me if some youtubers focus more on "click" value than information while others have no idea what they're doing. And sometimes, it really doesn't matter: case in point would be comparing 2 budget 5" speakers, let's say Polk vs Elac vs Klipsh: ultimately, they're all excellent at what they do for the price and it really doesn't matter which you choose, so such a video would probably focus more on entertainment value and other quality of life differences over any accurate discussion of the SQ beyond the consensus generalities. Then you have serious videos discussing $15,000 amplifiers or speaker comparisons - the level of detailed considerations here is deep and facets are endless.

This is why I've stopped doing speaker reviews ROFL and only soundbars (yes I hear something over here, sub sounds deep)

I have not checked out your Youtube channel. I have not found any reviewers that do a good job on soundbars. Usually pretty crappy. If you know of any good reviewers who do a great job can you share the name of the YouTube sites? I'd like to check them out. So far I have come up bust over the last 5 years.

 

[beagleman]

Subjectivists in general: DO NOT UNDERSTAND how human hearing process/perception and brain works.

That is really the final answer on all of this.
They think they are always right and can not comprehend how bias and expectations and all the stuff our brain does can even exist.


In their bubble world, everyone else is always wrong. Mostly small minded guys, that feel they are superior as far as having better hearing, knowing "What" to listen for and better equipment. They just make excuses for everything, but never prove anything.

 

[Killingbeans]

Well, a hobby is all about wasting time on something nice and soothing.

The idea that your personal hearing ability is an infallible measurement instrument, guiding you through an endless world of wonderful impressions, is definitely nice and soothing.

Reality just isn't as fun as the mythos of high-end audiophilia. Can't really blame folks for ignoring it.

 

[egellings]

Please correct me, but I don't believe this has happened. If so, please show me where.

There's many subjectivists out there who have done ABX testing and report hearing differences. Here is an example:

Magni 3 Heresy and 3+ Blind Listening

Related Threads (background): https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/makmeksams-good-measuring-vs-good-sounding-thread.8661/...

www.superbestaudiofriends.org

There are even more subjectivists who report hearing large differences every day without doing testing. The objectivist claim is that well measuring gear is audibly indistinguishable. Wouldn't it be super easy to debunk with one live ABX test using gear the subjective listener is familiar with?

In that link above, he claims its very easy to tell the difference between those budget Magni amps. Wouldn't it be even easier to tell with a super high end amp vs. a budget well measuring amp?

If this live test took place, and one subjectivist was able to reliably tell the difference between these well measuring amps. Would that be enough to change your opinion on the matter?

Subjectivists & objectivists likely don't get together for ABX tests for the same reason that believers and atheists don't get together to discuss deities.

 

[fpitas]

Subjectivists & objectivists likely don't get together for ABX tests for the same reason that believers and atheists don't get together to discuss deities.

Ramen!