Why has the loudness war not ended yet?

[sergeauckland]

That’s a real shame in my opinion, and I guess I have listened to the marketing fluff.

I would think that I fall into that 99% and probably could not distinguish one over the other, so I’ll concede that. My next question would be… Is the Hi-Rez better for my gear?

I know problems especially at high volumes happen with distortion. Is there less distortion in the Hi-Rez version of our music?

Hi Res has no effect on the equipment, and the equipment has no effect on the Hi Res. The limitations in each case are human hearing and room effects. Distortion in the audio band will be the same for normal or High resolution, and inaudible in both cases unless the original source (like analogue tape) is distorted. There are good reasons for recording at 96kHz sampling, and 32 or 48 bit or floating point, in terms of providing headroom for mixing, EQ etc, but once the final mix is created, there's zero benefit in anything more than 16 bit and 48k sampling. 16/44.1 is entirely adequate as a distribution format.

S.

 

[Deleted member 43441]

Hi Res has no effect on the equipment, and the equipment has no effect on the Hi Res. The limitations in each case are human hearing and room effects. Distortion in the audio band will be the same for normal or High resolution, and inaudible in both cases unless the original source (like analogue tape) is distorted. There are good reasons for recording at 96kHz sampling, and 32 or 48 bit or floating point, in terms of providing headroom for mixing, EQ etc, but once the final mix is created, there's zero benefit in anything more than 16 bit and 48k sampling. 16/44.1 is entirely adequate as a distribution format.

S.

Understood.

What I meant was what about the MP3, or the lo-res version that everyone listens to. What kind of distortions is that putting through my setup, and is that harmful?

That may be over 50% of the reason that I use Hi-Rez, because I always assumed it was better, less distortion and better for our gear.

 

[Zensō]

Understood.

What I meant was what about the MP3, or the lo-res version that everyone listens to. What kind of distortions is that putting through my setup, and is that harmful?

That may be over 50% of the reason that I use Hi-Rez, because I always assumed it was better, less distortion and better for our gear.

If you’re on any of the paid services (Apple Music, Amazon HD, Spotify Premium, Tidal, Qobuz, etc.), you don’t need to worry about which format you’re listening to. None of them are introducing audible distortion.

 

[Deleted member 43441]

If you’re on any of the paid services (Apple Music, Amazon HD, Spotify Premium, Tidal, Qobuz, etc.), you don’t need to worry about which format you’re listening to. None of them are introducing audible distortion.

That’s good to know, and I feel a little better, thanks.

What about my new vinyl records, or don’t I want to know?

Subjectively, new vinyl seems to have gotten better in the last 5 to 10 years then it was back in the 90s and earlier 2000s.

 

[TBone]

I’m beginning to see the light, And yes I agree no matter how good something measures if your source isn't up to snuff it all goes out the window.

another old tb1 saga ...

many many moons ago, as one of a group of vinylheads, we used to share rips of our tables as a way to communicate individual tt components , setup and performance via 16/44. We often used specific albums (please no more dsotm) as references.

I used to kinda, well, i did, cheat, not based on vinyl manipulation, but rather purposefully rip an orig lp know to contain superior dynamic content by contrast. In every case, the response was positive in my favor, but in reality, the lp i ripped was the key, not so much my system.

16/44.1 is entirely adequate as a distribution format.

Yep, and so easily proven.

 

[sergeauckland]

Understood.

What I meant was what about the MP3, or the lo-res version that everyone listens to. What kind of distortions is that putting through my setup, and is that harmful?

That may be over 50% of the reason that I use Hi-Rez, because I always assumed it was better, less distortion and better for our gear.

There's no harmonic or intermodulation distortion with an MP3, at least no more than an uncompressed file. The difference is that with an MP3, there's a lot of data that's suppressed, hence the data compression, done in such a way that the missing data is inaudible at best, and as data reduction increases, the degradation becomes increasingly audible, but it's not distortion in the conventional way, nor is it a change in frequency response, although at extremely low bit rates, there will be some reduction in HF energy.

One benefit of being the age I am, is that my early education involved being trained to hear analogue artefacts like harmonic and intermodulation distortion, wow and flutter, frequency response anomalies etc. By the time data compression became a thing, in the early 1990s, I never got the training in hearing compression artefacts, so the various algorithms sounded fairly decent to me, once over a certain bit rate. Now that so much is data compressed, I'm pleased I never got any good at hearing the artefacts as I can enjoy data compressed music.

You certainly don't need to have any concerns that data compressed music is doing any harm to your equipment.

S.

 

[Deleted member 43441]

Hi Res has no effect on the equipment, and the equipment has no effect on the Hi Res. The limitations in each case are human hearing and room effects. Distortion in the audio band will be the same for normal or High resolution, and inaudible in both cases unless the original source (like analogue tape) is distorted. There are good reasons for recording at 96kHz sampling, and 32 or 48 bit or floating point, in terms of providing headroom for mixing, EQ etc, but once the final mix is created, there's zero benefit in anything more than 16 bit and 48k sampling. 16/44.1 is entirely adequate as a distribution format.

S.

By the way I’m good with CD-quality, as long as the loudness war is out of the CD.

I’ve done sighted A/B tests between CD and Amazon HD and it was very obvious that there is no difference. Even though it was sighted, I quickly switched between the two and there was no difference whatsoever.

 

[Zensō]

That’s good to know, and I feel a little better, thanks.

What about my new vinyl records, or don’t I want to know?

Subjectively, new vinyl seems to have gotten better in the last 5 to 10 years then it was back in the 90s and earlier 2000s.

Someone else will have to answer your question re vinyl. I sold all of my vinyl many moons ago when CDs came on the market.

 

[Deleted member 43441]

There's no harmonic or intermodulation distortion with an MP3, at least no more than an uncompressed file. The difference is that with an MP3, there's a lot of data that's suppressed, hence the data compression, done in such a way that the missing data is inaudible at best, and as data reduction increases, the degradation becomes increasingly audible, but it's not distortion in the conventional way, nor is it a change in frequency response, although at extremely low bit rates, there will be some reduction in HF energy.

One benefit of being the age I am, is that my early education involved being trained to hear analogue artefacts like harmonic and intermodulation distortion, wow and flutter, frequency response anomalies etc. By the time data compression became a thing, in the early 1990s, I never got the training in hearing compression artefacts, so the various algorithms sounded fairly decent to me, once over a certain bit rate. Now that so much is data compressed, I'm pleased I never got any good at hearing the artefacts as I can enjoy data compressed music.

You certainly don't need to have any concerns that data compressed music is doing any harm to your equipment.

S.

That always intrigued me, the training and how people including yourself can hear those artifacts. I never went there, I never did any research on it, never sought any training. Like yourself in this digital age, I’m glad I never did.

 

[Deleted member 43441]

Interesting discussion gentlemen, thank you for enlightening me. Have a great day!

 

[Zensō]

Interesting discussion gentlemen, thank you for enlightening me. Have a great day!

You too! Don't forget to enjoy the music!

 

[TBone]

This “hobby” is a lot like the photography hobby. For some, it‘s more about gear research and acquisition than actually listening to music (or taking photographs). The problem is that we can now buy extremely good gear for relatively little money, and once we have it there’s nothing left to buy. Those who are in it for the gear need to invent reasons to upgrade or the buying and selling quickly comes to a grinding halt. Of course, the manufacturers are more than happy to oblige.

... build my own fishing rods, built generally for a specific fish/lure/presentation/application: using very high grade components, as an example: eyes r the hardest, most free friction, least wear, best temperature sensitive, silicone carbides (sic's).

... these rods r far more expensive alternatives, but they provide me with distinct working advantages compared to do-all store based rods, which can't provide the same performance by design.

guiding new clients, they often comment about how old & ugly, outdated my equipment is compared to their new & latest rods/reels based mostly on bs marketing. They have no idea about spine'ning blanks properly (the most common problem w most store rods is incorrect offset of the spine(s) and increased eye friction.)

generally, most store bought rods r near impossible to cast accurately and can severely limit stealth and presentation, the key to fooling bigger, wiser, fish.

If they piss me off enough, and many do ... i take their money and never introduce em to good locations or techniques. Instead, take em to a place in which THEY have little chance of catching anything worthwhile, as i catch and release 1 after another. As always, frustration builds like out of control forest fires, as i internally laugh at their futility.

Audiophiles r all too often just as frustrated when chasing sonic ghosts ...

 

[Deleted member 43441]

You too! Don't forget to enjoy the music!

I’m doing that right now!

Sometimes I forget, and I’ve been so centered on getting my music room sounding right in a new house, that I am forgetting to relax and enjoy.

 

[Zensō]

... build my own fishing rods, built generally for a specific fish/lure/presentation/application: using very high grade components, as an example: eyes r the hardest, most free friction, least wear, best temperature sensitive, silicone carbides (sic's).

... these rods r far more expensive alternatives, but they provide me with distinct working advantages compared to do-all store based rods, which can't provide the same performance by design.

guiding new clients, they often comment about how old & ugly, outdated my equipment is compared to their new & latest rods/reels based mostly on bs marketing. They have no idea about spine'ning blanks properly (the most common problem w most store rods is incorrect offset of the spine(s) and increased eye friction.)

generally, most store bought rods r near impossible to cast accurately and can severely limit stealth and presentation, the key to fooling bigger, wiser, fish.

If they piss me off enough, and many do ... i take their money and never introduce em to good locations or techniques. Instead, take em to a place in which THEY have little chance of catching anything worthwhile, as i catch and release 1 after another. As always, frustration builds like out of control forest fires, as i internally laugh at their futility.

Audiophiles r all too often just as frustrated when chasing sonic ghosts ...

I was in the fly fishing business for a decade. Another gear fetish sport/hobby...

 

[Deleted member 43441]

... build my own fishing rods, built generally for a specific fish/lure/presentation/application: using very high grade components, as an example: eyes r the hardest, most free friction, least wear, best temperature sensitive, silicone carbides (sic's).

... these rods r far more expensive alternatives, but they provide me with distinct working advantages compared to do-all store based rods, which can't provide the same performance by design.

guiding new clients, they often comment about how old & ugly, outdated my equipment is compared to their new & latest rods/reels based mostly on bs marketing. They have no idea about spine'ning blanks properly (the most common problem w most store rods is incorrect offset of the spine(s) and increased eye friction.)

generally, most store bought rods r near impossible to cast accurately and can severely limit stealth and presentation, the key to fooling bigger, wiser, fish.

If they piss me off enough, and many do ... i take their money and never introduce em to good locations or techniques. Instead, take em to a place in which THEY have little chance of catching anything worthwhile, as i catch and release 1 after another. As always, frustration builds like out of control forest fires, as i internally laugh at their futility.

Audiophiles r all too often just as frustrated when chasing sonic ghosts ...

Are they high resolution fishing rods?

Lol!

No more sonic ghosts for me, and thanks for grounding me again guys!

 

[Deleted member 43441]

I have one more concern, my new preamp has no display… I have no idea where the volume is at any given time, and I’m afraid I’m going to pop a speaker not realizing.

I posted about it but only got one response, and that response was to buy something else, and all I really need is a transparent digital volume control, or some kind of a view meter that I can plug an RCA output into from the preamp.

Audiophiles right?

I’m pretty sure I have enough gear that I could control the space station if I tried hahaha.

 

[Mystical Boar]

There are ppl who care. Those ppl browse discogs or Russian trackers on daily basis (possibly both) and keep their mouths shut. Why? Because they know they're downloading illegal rips or don't want any competition - buying out LPs and old CDs thus rendering it more difficult to obtain and leveling up the prices.

Nowadays many old albums from late 90's-2000's come out on vinyl in limited editions. You have to be quick with those because record dealers buy out entire runs and sell them for much higher prices on third party sites.

"Life finds a way"... even if it's through a sewage pipe.

 

[Deleted member 43441]

There are ppl who care. Those ppl browse discogs or Russian trackers on daily basis (possibly both) and keep their mouths shut. Why? Because they know they're downloading illegal rips or don't want any competition - buying out LPs and old CDs thus rendering it more difficult to obtain and leveling up the prices.

Nowadays many old albums from late 90's-2000's come out on vinyl in limited editions. You have to be quick with those because record dealers buy out entire runs and sell them for much higher prices on third party sites.

"Life finds a way"... even if it's through a sewage pipe.

You’re right about that, if you don’t get the first run on vinyl, they buy it all up and double the price three months later.

 

[Mystical Boar]

The real tragedy is that rather than having a proper digital format with music "mastered for hi-fi" or "audiophile editions" one has to resort to over 70 years old format in order to get a decent master. This is ridiculous, like it's either a tasty steak from a dirty pig trough or turd on a porcelain plate.

Personally I can't stand loud and compressed masters as music in such quality instantly annoys me. Well, a boar is just a wild pig.

 

[-Matt-]

It’s not a matter of quality, but consistency of volume. When listening with high background noise, or with music played at low volume as background music, the quiet passages may drop below the ambient noise level when the peaks are at the desired level.

Applying compression during mixing is the wrong solution, it damages the source material. It would be better to provide compression controls in the playback device.

However, in modern times, most wouldn't want to manually adjust such settings. A possible solution could therefore be something akin to the compression controls or dynamic eq already seen in AVRs.

Thinking out loud here... Further down the line I wonder if we might see something similar to Dolby vision. I.e. HDR Audio, where metadata accompanies the audio stream with flags to specify the amplitude scale that the DAC should use. (This could allow more optimal use of the available number of digital bits).

...Compression control could easily be implemented simply by adjusting the transfer function between the metadata amplitude flags and the amplitude scaling. (Equivalent to dynamic tone mapping of the Electro-Optic Transfer Function EOTF in HDR displays).

Edit: On second thoughts... Perhaps HDR audio doesn't make as much sense as HDR video. Most displays have only 10 or 12 bits per colour channel, but have millions of pixels per frame. (The bit depth is a limiting factor for the visual appearance, but cannot easily be increased due to the enormous bandwidth needed). For audio it is already practical to have 32 or 64 bits per channel (typically only 10s of channels required, maximum). ...At which point there is no need to mess about with flags to switch between amplitude ranges. (16 bits is probably already enough for most audio distribution and 24 should easily be plenty).