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Why has the loudness war not ended yet?

abdo123

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I know that this forum is concerned with music reproduction and not necessarily production, but i thought it's a good discussion to have.

iTunes has been applying -16 LUFS loudness normalization 'Sound Check' for over a decade now.

Youtube and Spotify have had loudness normalization (-12 and -14 LUFS respectively) for a very long time as well.

Like what other markets are there so producers are still producing for loudness? Are Radio plays still that relevant in 2021?
 

Zensō

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Most listening is happening on portable Bluetooth speakers and EarPods, consequently, mainstream music is going to continue to be optimized for those devices, regardless of the requirements of the streaming services. We also have an entire generation of music producers and listeners who are acclimated to the sound of highly compressed music.
 

_thelaughingman

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We also have an entire generation of music producers and listeners who are acclimated to the sound of highly compressed music.
Truth. I saw a electronic music tutorial a while back of a renonwed DJ/artist and he was eschewing the need to compress the track for streaming purposes. I have listened to music of different genres going back some decades and i honestly can't stand to listen to stuff coming out today because of the shit quality.
 
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abdo123

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Truth. I saw a electronic music tutorial a while back of a renonwed DJ/artist and he was eschewing the need to compress the track for streaming purposes. I have listened to music of different genres going back some decades and i honestly can't stand to listen to stuff coming out today because of the shit quality.

things have improved for sure for the last four years, things aren't death magnetic bad anymore.

specially with pop music shifting from EDM to groovy alternative sounds.
 

_thelaughingman

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@abdo123 I will say there is one or two new songs that i've quite enjoyed recently. Bruno Mars' new project Soul Sonic which has great arrangements for "Leave the door open" and an ambient electronica song.
 
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abdo123

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@abdo123 I will say there is one or two new songs that i've quite enjoyed recently. Bruno Mars' new project Soul Sonic which has great arrangements for "Leave the door open" and an ambient electronica song.

The weekend's blinding light also sounds amazing for a track that is well compressed.
 

Zensō

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I think the thing that gets missed here is that when listening to music with open air earbuds on a street corner or public transit, or in a car with high road noise (two situations where music is often consumed), high dynamic range music requires constantly riding the volume control to hear the soft passages. These types of mobile listening scenarios are likely going to continue to drive much of how mainstream music is produced for the foreseeable future.
 
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abdo123

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I think the thing that gets missed here is that when listening to music with open air earbuds on a street corner or public transit, or in a car with factory speakers and high road noise (two situations where music is often consumed), high dynamic range music requires constantly riding the volume control to hear the soft passages. These types of mobile listening scenarios are likely going to continue to drive much of how mainstream music is produced for the foreseeable future.

but if the song's loudness will be pushed to -16 dB anyway what's the point? that's what i don't understand.
 

ernestcarl

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IMO, there's still a lot of potentially good/excellent new music out there, but with much less dynamic range than I would have liked -- music that's definitely made for the majority of limited speakers -- although sometimes these do sound good even when played loud -- sadly, the ears will tire out sooner.
 

Zensō

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but if the song's loudness will be pushed to -16 dB anyway what's the point? that's what i don't understand.
LUFS indicates the loudness averaged over the entirety of a track, not the dynamic range. Some producers compress music to reduce the dynamic range, minimizing the difference between the softest and loudest parts of a track to make it more listenable in those mobile scenarios I mentioned. The “Loudness War” is arguably mostly driven by the massive move to mobile listening.
 
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abdo123

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LUFS indicates the loudness averaged over the entirety of a track, not the dynamic range.

I think LUFS units are based on percieved loudness (Like A-weighting), it's an improved version of ReplayGain. mastering with LUFS normalization in mind inherently maximizes dynamic range (at least that's how I understand it).
 

Music1969

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but if the song's loudness will be pushed to -16 dB anyway what's the point? that's what i don't understand.

You mentioned -16dB in relation to Apple's "Sound Check" normalization but this feature is not even ON by default in Apple Music...

The loudness war will really head to being over when the normalization options for all streaming services is ON by default (ideal would be user not being able to turn it off at all).

This way , the only way to stand out will be with great music and dynamic range at the same time.
 

mhardy6647

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Since I've always been a big fan of reductio ad absurdum*...

Isn't the end game here white noise** at 0dB? Game, set, and match.

ahem

________________
* which sounds like the technical term for some sort of sex act that's still illegal in 32 states in the US. :cool:
** Or maybe pink noise, but I don't want to over-think this.
 

Zensō

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I think LUFS units are based on percieved loudness (Like A-weighting), it's an improved version of ReplayGain. mastering with LUFS normalization in mind inherently maximizes dynamic range (at least that's how I understand it).
That’s correct. But you’re assuming producers desire maximum dynamic range, which in many cases is not true for the reasons mentioned above.
 
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abdo123

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You mentioned -16dB in relation to Apple's "Sound Check" normalization but this feature is not even ON by default in Apple Music...

The loudness war will really head to being over when the normalization options for all streaming services is ON by default (even better would be not being able to turn it off at all).

This way , the only way to stand out will be with dynamic range.

Youtube and Spotify have it on by default, you can't even opt out from it on Youtube.
 

mhardy6647

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Correct, Death Magnetic won and has been undisputed champ since.
One can tell that I am old, because I have no idea what that means.
I'd've bet money that Death Magnetic was the name of a audiophile cable company...
but I digress.

I'll stop now, honest.
 

Music1969

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Youtube and Spotify have it on by default, you can't even opt out from it on Youtube.

You mentioned iTunes and -16dB so I was sticking to what you mentioned... it is not enabled by default.
 
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