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Why, for the same song, I'd like one master compared to anothers?

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Nowhk

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It's not just about technical artifacts caused by mastering, you prefer a completely different mix of the art. The music has to be mixed, otherwise, it can’t be reproduced in our homes. You simply prefer the mono mix over the others this time around. :)
So the "mix" is part of the song? And different mixes equals to different songs (even of the same source material)? I don't get this point really
Why does the sound of a Ferrari triggers a different response than that of a Ford Focus?
Ferrari and Ford Focus are in fact "two differents" things. Are you saying the same between the different master of the video? Different things due to different master? Another song? Same point of above in terms of "what is what"...
...
 

Geert

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Ferrari and Ford Focus are in fact "two differents" things. Are you saying the same between the different master of the video?

It's not about these cars being different, it's about how different sound triggers different emotions. And that's exactly what happens with different masters. You prefered the mono version, and that version is the one that sound the most 'in your face' while the oldest version sounds very distant and hollow. The sound of a Ferrari is also very prominent.
 

goat76

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So the "mix" is part of the song? And different mixes equals to different songs (even of the same source material)? I don't get this point really

I have tried to wrap my head around this question for some time now without success. It's probably my fault. :)

Can you please elaborate on the question?
 
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Nowhk

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I have tried to wrap my head around this question for some time now without success. It's probably my fault. :)

Can you please elaborate on the question?
:) Yes, that's could looks weird, try to explain my puzzlement with different words...

I would start from the words written by @Geert the post above: "different sound triggers different emotions".
I would say that this "sound" is related to the work of artists. i.e. the "art" make by artists should triggers different emotions.

You are saying that different mix have a different emotional response.
But is the mix considered an "element" of the song? I mean: if in 10 years all Beatles component will die (I don't hope so, but...), and Mister X will do a different mix/master, how this can be related to Beatles? (i.e. the artist behind the song). How can be considered the same piece of art?
The same with older works though...

Mister X has nothing to do with Beatles really, but it will change (in positive, or negative) my emotional response without any right by artists.
So the question: is mix/master part of the song of its own life (even if separated from artist)? Or is should be considered just a "layer" of sound will help to activate some emotions from the content of original artists? Or how would you consider it related to the concept of art/emotions?
You could say (as said earlier) mix is part of music, and music need to be mixed. Ok, I agree: but how this change the concept of "what is/which is" a song? Different versions?
I can't say the same "title" of a song can be described "the same song" with those different mixes/master listened above (sound change, concept change, emotions change).
Title/Artists stay the same? :p

Hope this words can help to elaborate more my dubt? Otherwise, I'll re-elaborate again, and again... :p (its really somethings that make me crazy, accepting and listening music).
 

goat76

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:) Yes, that's could looks weird, try to explain my puzzlement with different words...

I would start from the words written by @Geert the post above: "different sound triggers different emotions".
I would say that this "sound" is related to the work of artists. i.e. the "art" make by artists should triggers different emotions.

You are saying that different mix have a different emotional response.
But is the mix considered an "element" of the song? I mean: if in 10 years all Beatles component will die (I don't hope so, but...), and Mister X will do a different mix/master, how this can be related to Beatles? (i.e. the artist behind the song). How can be considered the same piece of art?
The same with older works though...

Mister X has nothing to do with Beatles really, but it will change (in positive, or negative) my emotional response without any right by artists.
So the question: is mix/master part of the song of its own life (even if separated from artist)? Or is should be considered just a "layer" of sound will help to activate some emotions from the content of original artists? Or how would you consider it related to the concept of art/emotions?
You could say (as said earlier) mix is part of music, and music need to be mixed. Ok, I agree: but how this change the concept of "what is/which is" a song? Different versions?
I can't say the same "title" of a song can be described "the same song" with those different mixes/master listened above (sound change, concept change, emotions change).
Title/Artists stay the same? :p

Hope this words can help to elaborate more my dubt? Otherwise, I'll re-elaborate again, and again... :p (its really somethings that make me crazy, accepting and listening music).
As I see it, a song often evolves over time by living artists performing them live long after they were recorded and mixed the first time. And as long as the artist is alive and a new mix is done, he/she has probably approved the new mix, so which version can really be considered the "original"?

Every single mix or master of the song is the mixing/mastering engineer's take/interpretation of the art that originally took place in a studio, and it's not sure if it was completed at that point or even fully written when the recordings started.

Your preference of the Beatles' White Album happens to be the mono version, but maybe late John Lennon would have preferred the latest 2018 mixes of that album and considered it to sound closest to how he heard the songs in the studio. And who knows how these songs would have evolved if The Beatles were still an active band today?

For us as listeners, it's all about personal preferences. Have a listen to the outtakes of the 2018 mixes, some of the songs sounded very different during the recording sessions than the final release. :)
 
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Nowhk

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so which version can really be considered the "original"?
Yeah of course, but how can you call it in a generic way "song"?

It become a different stuff due to different mix/master.
Only some "aspects" are the same (i.e. i would say melody, harmony, and so on); others will differs (panning, timbre, dynamic, and so on).

If someone ask to you "what do you think about Back in the USSR", you think at... what?
Just curious... because it means lots of things by the same "title" hehe
It seems major people don't care at all about this, which make huge differences.

And its not the same about call "pizza" whatever pizza you will eat: that's a generic term which make sense.
A piece of art (a specific one, with title, etc), once generated, should be considered "unique as it is"; that's the critic point I believe...
 

goat76

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Yeah of course, but how can you call it in a generic way "song"?

It become a different stuff due to different mix/master.
Only some "aspects" are the same (i.e. i would say melody, harmony, and so on); others will differs (panning, timbre, dynamic, and so on).

If someone ask to you "what do you think about Back in the USSR", you think at... what?
Just curious... because it means lots of things by the same "title" hehe
It seems major people don't care at all about this, which make huge differences.

And its not the same about call "pizza" whatever pizza you will eat: that's a generic term which make sense.
A piece of art (a specific one, with title, etc), once generated, should be considered "unique as it is"; that's the critic point I believe...
No, it doesn't become a different song just because it a different mix/master, it's still the same song even if another band plays it as a cover. If someone asks me what I think of the song "Back In The U.S.S.R." in general, I will probably just give them the general answer that I like the song, but I will most likely think of the version I mostly prefer.

As I said, a song will even change over time as the original artist gets bored of it, or details of it will just evolve over time, but it still shares the fundamental parts that keep it the same song. I mean, If The White Album was recorded one year later it would probably sound completely different, but the fundamental ideas behind the song would remain the same.

Let's say you are sitting at the Karaoke Pizza Bar and request the singer to sing the song Yellow Submarine, would you consider it to be a different song? :)
 
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Nowhk

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No, it doesn't become a different song just because it a different mix/master, it's still the same song even if another band plays it as a cover.
Let's say you are sitting at the Karaoke Pizza Bar and request the singer to sing the song Yellow Submarine, would you consider it to be another song?
That's the point :)

So what are the "fundamental" things that are able to describe a song (interchangeable, despite mix/master/cover/ecc)?

And (even more important), the "song" at different mix/master layer become... what?
What's the way/term/whatever to describe the whole chain? (which include these final adjustements)
 

dasdoing

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If I would be listening to this kind of music I would thank Giles Martin every single day. these old mixes are terrible.
So you liking the mono is probably totally explained by nostalgia
 

goat76

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That's the point :)

So what are the "fundamental" things that are able to describe a song (interchangeable, despite mix/master/cover/ecc)?

And (even more important), the "song" at different mix/master layer become... what?
What's the way/term/whatever to describe the whole chain? (which include these final adjustements)

I guess the only criterion is that it's recognizable as the same song, and what is fundamental depends on the specific song itself and what makes it easily recognized as the same song.

Different mixes and masters become different versions of the same song. A remix of the song can change the layout completely and move around the instruments and add new sound objects and levels to the mix, and with a remaster all the elements stay the same but the tonal balance of the full mix is probably altered with some EQ adjustments. Was that what you asked about? :)

As @dasdoing, I also prefer the new mixes of the Beatles albums when listening to the full songs on Qobuz. But for whatever reason, I didn't like the sound of those mixes in the comparison video you posted but streamed here at home, the new stuff sounds better than the old versions I've heard.
 

DJNX

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So the question: is mix/master part of the song of its own life (even if separated from artist)? Or is should be considered just a "layer" of sound will help to activate some emotions from the content of original artists? Or how would you consider it related to the concept of art/emotions?
There is no fixed answer to this question. Depends on the artist and how much the artist/band gets involved in the entire process.
Remember, there are basically three stages in the creation of a song/album:

-Preprodiction: creation of the song itself (lyrics, structure, instrumentation, etc)
-Production: the recording of the song
-Postproduction: mixing and mastering

If, let’s say you have a band of five members, and each member creates the instrumentation for their own instrument (let’s use a rock band as an example, for simplicity) and then collaborate between the five of them to finalize the song, then in theory what was created there, is the core of the song and nothing added or modified to it after that should be considered intrinsic to it.
That’s how the vast majority of people perceive the process to be. It is mostly "sold" to us to be that way. However there are three prominent figures (at least in most cases, if not more than three) that fundamentally change the final song, throughout the three stages of its creation:

-Recording engineer
-Mixing engineer
-Producer

The producer is the most essential and it actively takes transformational decisions, right from the preproduction stage. The producer can tell the bassist to completely change all the bass lines in all songs, just before going into production or even during production. For the specific subject of this thread, this is very relevant, since a decision like that can stem from issues, happenings, or a new-found sources of inspiration during recording or mixing. But more on the producer, later.

A recording engineer carries the burden of capturing the possible best performance of the musician. For example, this can be simply from just telling the guitarist that another take is needed, to tricking the guitarist by telling them to improvise/experiment while secretly recording them and aggressively presenting them the different arrangement than the originally intended, to accept the new version.
Another example would be to calm a nervous singer, by changing the atmosphere and the particular technique for recording vocals, ultimately changing the inflections, energy and overall performance of the singing in the song.
An experienced recording engineer should be able to tell the singer "go an chew 10 of these candies sold in this store and your voice will sound in X way if recorded with Y microphone", and suddenly what was intended to be a dry, single vox in the middle of the mix, is now multiple off-vocals planned to be hard-panned left and right.

A mixing engineer is fundamental as he is the one that sets what instrument is the prominent one and at what point of each song. Before the mixing stage, the placement of the instruments, the character and tonality are just mere plans. Added effects, distortion, reverberation often transform the song, all of these largely responsibility of the mixing engineer. At this stage, even the structure of the song is not fully set (verse, chorus, bridge order). The mixing engineer can add pauses, repeat segments without re-recording needed, or call for re-recording of particular parts of certain instrument, which could be simply looking for a better take, a different take with different dynamics and accent or a completely different arrangement.

The producer can of course, negate, request or encourage these changes and experimentation. Most of all the producer should be a creative ally to the musicians and very importantly, capable to keep them at bay; whether is from making the rebellious drummer to arrive on time (or deciding on using a drum machine, if he doesn’t), to deciding if certain band mates record together (for technical, creative or disciplinary reasons).

In practice, all these additions to the initial core of the song, can be implemented at many different points, by either the recording or mixing engineer or the producer. The producer can be also the mixing engineer (or the recording engineer), etc. etc.

All-in-all, this is a very long answer to say that the question itself is fundamentally a misconception. The mix is not a layer nor separate from the artist, as the three roles described above are inherent to the artistry in the song.

Two real life examples:

Marilyn Manson, for the album Mechanical Animals arrived to the production stage with a very solid foundation. While recording, the producer brought an ARP 2600 synth, and decided to use it as a distortion module, instead of traditional guitar distortion. That change alone, transformed the texture and feel of the album, influencing how the layering and extra arrangements were implemented conceptually.


(As a side note, you can see in the case above that the producer didn’t get involved until the production stage)

Second example:
A producer unhappy with the synths of a rock song.
In this case the producer felt the "size" of the synth for that part of the song was all wrong. The solution: playback the recorded synth into the recording room with the speakers blasting at very high SPL, with added reverb, and capturing that with mics, and using that as the final product.


(Notice the ~artists~ sitting there, getting schooled on how to bring character and attitude to their song. So quick question: how much of what the fans will feel during that song do you attribute to the artist and how much to the producer or mixing/recording engineer?)
 
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Nowhk

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I guess the only criterion is that it's recognizable as the same song, and what is fundamental depends on the specific song itself and what makes it easily recognized as the same song.
This for me is not enough unfortunately: its too much "abstract" as definition, mean all and nothing :)
Can't believe nobody in the world have tried to made some study about "what is a song" hehe (done some research on the web, founding nothing interesting :( ).

In this case the producer felt the "size" of the synth for that part of the song was all wrong. The solution: playback the recorded synth into the recording room with the speakers blasting at very high SPL, with added reverb, and capturing that with mics, and using that as the final product.
Interesting. I'll have a look when get home and return to you for a fancy talk about it (I've lots of questions, but first I think is necessary to see the video).

I've spare time to focus on this topic these days unfortunately (due to hard work), hope you can follow me also with this low-freq response time ahah
 

Peluvius

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I have recently been dismayed by the remasters of almost all of Midnight Oil's music on Tidal. Most tracks are different musically from the originals, which I know note for note.

It is really frustrating for anyone with an emotional attachment to the original recordings, they are just not the same. The other frustration is that suddenly all of the original albums disappear from streaming services and shops so you don't have a choice as to what you hear unless you already have an original or buy a used one.

I don't know if the remasters are technically superior.
 

olbobcat

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I have recently been dismayed by the remasters of almost all of Midnight Oil's music on Tidal. Most tracks are different musically from the originals, which I know note for note.

It is really frustrating for anyone with an emotional attachment to the original recordings, they are just not the same. The other frustration is that suddenly all of the original albums disappear from streaming services and shops so you don't have a choice as to what you hear unless you already have an original or buy a used one.

I don't know if the remasters are technically superior.
I found the originals to be very compressed in my opinion.
 

Peluvius

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I found the originals to be very compressed in my opinion.

Maybe that's why they felt the need to remaster everything, who knows, but why did they feel the need to change all the music? They have done something similar to Icehouse re-masters but fortunately not to their entire library.

This is one of those cases where my preference is not determined by audio quality at all.

The recent re-master of animals on the other hand was excellent, it just improved the sound quality of what had already been done.
 

olbobcat

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Yes, Animals is quite good. I like all the remastered INXS from that time frame.
 

goat76

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I have recently been dismayed by the remasters of almost all of Midnight Oil's music on Tidal. Most tracks are different musically from the originals, which I know note for note.

It is really frustrating for anyone with an emotional attachment to the original recordings, they are just not the same. The other frustration is that suddenly all of the original albums disappear from streaming services and shops so you don't have a choice as to what you hear unless you already have an original or buy a used one.

I don't know if the remasters are technically superior.
I’m personally not into Midnight Oil, but if the new versions are indeed remixes of the old albums (if that'what you mean by “musically different”), then it's really strange if they remove the original versions from the streaming platforms.


Just to make sure we are comparing apples with apples... :)

Remix: Elements in the songs are added, removed, or panned differently.

Remaster: The tone is changed by EQ, and/or the dynamics are altered in some way but the mix is still the same.

So what exactly was changed in Midnight Oil’s songs?
 
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goat76

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This for me is not enough unfortunately: its too much "abstract" as definition, mean all and nothing :)
Can't believe nobody in the world have tried to made some study about "what is a song" hehe (done some research on the web, founding nothing interesting :( ).
It simply can’t be defined with any hard set of rules, it's a case by case scenario.
Even if a band decides to play their songs acoustically, that was originally recorded with electric instruments, it’s still the same songs as long as the songs are recognized as “the song”. :)
 

Chrispy

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Definition of "song" seems to be a bigger issue than I can imagine for the OP? Maybe he means a particularly recorded/mixed track?
 

Madlop26

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I listened with my best gear, I am not gonna lie, I liked the 2018 version the most
 
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