Why evaluating the sound of a single speaker is essential

[Duke]

Loss of bass hearing would be unusual, I think...?

My step-father attributed his low-frequency hearing loss to having been a helicopter pilot for the Marine Corps (including five tours in Viet Nam). He said that hearing protection did not attenuate very low (including infrasonic) frequencies sufficiently to prevent such hearing loss.

 

[Ellebob]

My father was also a helicopter pilot with hearing loss. l'm not sure if it was just low frequency though. He did 2 tours in Vietnam. He was in the Coast Guard but pilots were sent to Vietnam as they needed them.

 

[MattHooper]

Bass, especially low bass, is transceived by bone to the inner ear, so it is usually the last frequency range you loose when outer and middle ear quits. If the inner ear quits, that would be a reason, but that means complete deafness.

It was often said that it’s the higher frequencies that damage hearing not the lower frequencies. But at least with respect to my tinnitus and Hyperacusis it is sensitive to low frequencies as well.
When it was really bad I would try and see one of the blockbuster action movies at one of the bigger cinemas, but I would literally have to have both earplugs and sometimes even the addition of earmuffs for the action sequences. In listening to the sequences none of the mid or upper frequencies seemed too loud nor did they bother my ears. It was the massive impact of bass frequencies during explosions or whatever the transmitted right through my bone structure, that would significantly exacerbate my tinnitus and hyperacusis after the movie. At one point, I almost developed a type of phonophobia for bass frequencies since they would so easily exacerbate my condition (like even one of those assholes driving up beside me with a “boom car” stereo system, where you can just feel the bass rumbling through your own car. That would be enough to f*ck up my ears for a while)

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

It was often said that it’s the higher frequencies that damage hearing not the lower frequencies. But at least with respect to my tinnitus and Hyperacusis it is sensitive to low frequencies as well.
When it was really bad I would try and see one of the blockbuster action movies at one of the bigger cinemas, but I would literally have to have both earplugs and sometimes even the addition of earmuffs for the action sequences. In listening to the sequences none of the mid or upper frequencies seemed too loud nor did they bother my ears. It was the massive impact of bass frequencies during explosions or whatever the transmitted right through my bone structure, that would significantly exacerbate my tinnitus and hyperacusis after the movie. At one point, I almost developed a type of phonophobia for bass frequencies since they would so easily exacerbate my condition (like even one of those assholes driving up beside me with a “boom car” stereo system, where you can just feel the bass rumbling through your own car. That would be enough to f*ck up my ears for a while)

Similar experience. My discomfort caused by distortion.

 

[Andysu]

Hm-m-m. When objects are panned between enveloping/surrounding loudspeakers there is definite acoustical interference among the active loudspeakers. Since they are not likely to be in the same locations, or in the same number, in different Atmos systems the interference coloration will be different, but it is there. Hard panning to specific loudspeakers is recommended, especially for music. Synthesized sounds of alien creatures are different.

I will repeat my story about being at the Dolby Burbank "reference" facility being given a solo demonstration of Atmos when it was released. One of the demo tracks was a male voice panned around me. It took on quite different colorations as it moved to the side and rear, sounding truly offensive at times. When I mentioned it there was an awkward shuffling of feet before one of the Dolby officials said something like "most people don't notice it", focusing their attention on the location of the voice. When my colleagues were there the next day that demo was mysteriously "not available". 'nuff said.

wow dolby truly offensive ,, their atmos is beyond offensive , bsing lying to the public with fake 3d audio for 15 years , 15 years of dolby bs atmos and some real lousy mixes which is why i now hardly play atmos titles now on a , trinniov alt 32 36ch ,its turned me off its all been a 15 year lie of audio 3d

 

[Newman]

wow dolby truly offensive ,, their atmos is beyond offensive , bsing lying to the public with fake 3d audio for 15 years , 15 years of dolby bs atmos and some real lousy mixes which is why i now hardly play atmos titles now on a , trinniov alt 32 36ch ,its turned me off its all been a 15 year lie of audio 3d

I know it's impossible to get you to calm down a bit about Dolby and Atmos, your vitriol knows no bounds and is on constant hyperdrive.

But please do note that Dr Toole's comment, that you utilised as a springboard to remind us of your inner demons, was not actually a criticism of Dolby as a company or Atmos as a technology. It was a criticism of the way sound engineers often use Atmos. When a pure sound source is panned between speakers, its tonality is coloured. That's it. That's the whole issue he raised.

Dr Toole gives me the impression that he feels just as strongly about stereo sound being panned to generate a phantom centre image, and the tonal colouration that results. Except that with stereo, it's unavoidable: the only way for a sound engineer to avoid it is to hard pan all sources to left speaker or right speaker, which would result in the end of stereo audio in six months. It's not unavoidable with Atmos.

cheers

 

[Sal1950]

I know it's impossible to get you to calm down a bit about Dolby and Atmos, your vitriol knows no bounds and is on constant hyperdrive.

@Andysu is just an Atmos hater, he's expressed himself as one on a number of occasions.
Too bad he can't appreciate the multi dimensional sound field that Atmos offers, His Loss.

 

[illusonic]

It's not unavoidable with Atmos.

How can panning be done in Atmos without the same issues that a virtual stereo center has?
Is it because of lower distance between speakers that shifts comb filter effects up in frequency?
I don't know much about Atmos but it seems physical speaker locations may vary considerably.

As most of us enjoy the virtual center in stereo playback, it's questionable if stereo comb filter effects are really an issue perceptionally. In normal rooms lots of 1st order reflections also cause comb filter effects. Overlay of all reflections may actually help to make such defects less audible.

A virtual center is usually higher than the stereo speaker's reference axis. So I'm asking myself if an actual center would have to be placed accordingly. On some occasions I found real center speakers easy to localize.

Once there is a center speaker and an upmixer to provide the center signal for stereo content, voices panned half way left/right would again be panned over two speakers. Problem shifted from lead singer to background vocals.

With a large array of speakers (e.g. a circle of 10+ speakers) panning can always involve at least 2 speakers.
If the required position falls on an actual speaker location, the speakers on both sides can be included.
This helps to reduce tonality changes and it's also applied for panning over virtual sources in binaural playback (e.g. over headphones).
Because of digital summation ahead to binaural playback, comb filter effects can be much more severe for such applications.
And a good room simulation can also help in this case to cover comb filtering issues with a rich set of multidirectional reflections.

 

[Satanica]

I have a question.

If a speaker is designed to be listened to off-axis e.g. at approximately 30 degrees, then at what angle should it be evaluated in mono?

 

[Newman]

30 degrees

 

[Satanica]

30 degrees

And when Harman did blind testing in the past, what angle was typically used?

 

[Newman]

What speakers are you talking about?

 

[Satanica]

What speakers are you talkiing about?

All where the manufacturer specifically designed for off axis usage.

 

[Newman]

Such as...? For all I know there aren't any that Harman tested.

 

[Satanica]

Such as...? For all I know there aren't any that Harman tested.

Such as previously mentioned, but if you want some examples, see below.

Dali speakers are designed to be listened to off axis.

Andrew Jones has mentioned he has designed with off axis in mind as the presumption is most customers will use this way.

Kef recommend starting with no toe in to the listener, so approximately 30 degrees to the main listening area best spot.

 

[Newman]

Such as previously mentioned, but if you want some examples, see below.

Dali speakers are designed to be listened to off axis.

Andrew Jones has mentioned he has designed with off axis in mind as the presumption is most customers will use this way.

Kef recommend starting with no toe in to the listener, so approximately 30 degrees to the main listening area best spot.

I'm just not aware of Harman specifically testing any of those speaker brands' models for which the instructions specifically say to listen off axis. Can you help with that please?

 

[Satanica]

30 degrees

It doesn't make sense to me to do that in a non-anechoic environment, because reflections would be stronger on the left or the right.
And practically speaking, once again it doesn't make sense to me that a speaker would be designed to be listened to off axis and then be listened to in mono directly in front of the listener (centre speaker usage).

 

[Satanica]

I'm just not aware of Harman specifically testing any of those speaker brands' models for which the instructions specifically say to listen off axis. Can you help with that please?

''

How does hi-fi speaker toe-in affect what we hear and why should you consider it when positioning your speakers? Click the link to find out.

www.dali-speakers.com

10 Tips for Speaker Placement

The positioning of your speakers relative to your listening position is probably the most important factor you need to consider when setting up your listening room, so start with the physical set-up of your speakers and listening position before you worry about anything else.

eu.kef.com

 

[Buckchester]

Where are you going with this off axis stuff? Do you own one of these speakers that are recommended to be listened to off axis?

Usually those speakers that are recommended to be listened to off axis have an on axis problem, e.g. heightened on axis treble.

 

[Satanica]

I'm just not aware of Harman specifically testing any of those speaker brands' models for which the instructions specifically say to listen off axis. Can you help with that please?

Also this is worth a bit of a read and in context.

Toe out coaxials - Is that a rule of thumb?

I've heard Erin (Erin's Audio Corner) say multiple times that he likes coaxial monitors toed-out a bit, like 5-10% angle. What's the theory behind that? Or is that just an arbitrary preference? I like mine toed in pretty hard but I'm listening in a small reflective room.

www.audiosciencereview.com