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Why evaluating the sound of a single speaker is essential

Yup.

If a speaker sounds good, it's because the designer got the technical aspects right.
I am in the 'objective' camp and think we should use science and measurements to develop our audio equipment.
And also the statement that evaluating a single speaker is essential contributes to that.
btw I also think evaluating two speakers for stereo reproduction is essential.

I would like to have the perfect source the perfect speaker, a goal we can never reach but at least try to get closer to.

But then still 'If a speaker sounds good' is an subjective opinion. A not perfect speaker can sound good, even if a designer did NOT get the technical aspects right, it can still sound good to someone.
 
I am in the 'objective' camp and think we should use science and measurements to develop our audio equipment.
And also the statement that evaluating a single speaker is essential contributes to that.
btw I also think evaluating two speakers for stereo reproduction is essential.

Imo it depends on what one is evaluating.

If you're evaluating "sound quality", then imo using a single speaker is definitely more revealing. This is why: As the ability to detect a spatial image improves, the ability to detect a timbral coloration decreases. (From a YouTube lecture by Francis Rumsey; let me know if you'd like the link.)

But if you're evaluating "spatial quality", then imo stereo listening is the better tool. I'm under the impression that the published data does not support my belief, so I may be mistaken.
 
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We ordinary members can put these clowns on ignore.

But our professional members representing their bussiness and similar can not do that , they must be very polite and professional and post very carefully thought out responses to *everything* ( even if they want to rip your head off ). Please don’t burden them with bullsh*t .

And realise where the burden of proof lays, if you also have peer reviewed science or similar grounds for an alternative or model hypothesis for testing speakers please go ahead .

“ I think it’s wrong “ is just noise in this tread .

Ask more questions and learn stuff .

As I don’t design speakers and don’t have any scientific cred on the topic and can’t contribute much ( and realises that ) . My opinion based on reading here on ASR and in dr Tooles book etc is that he and his peers are very likely close to the truth about speakers , the explanations sounds plausible to me as an engineer . Of course all science can be improved upon . Criticism off the type this test is not done to six sigma level off accuracy ( like the LHC collider ) and therefore must be wrong is kind of silly :) there are limits on how to get empirical data out of human test subjects .

And realise the limitations of empirical models and their explanatory power , they’re are on some level a bit fussy and blunt .

And can not answer the wrong questions.

For example this model can probably help speaker builder’s design speakers that works better for more people in different acoustic circumstances with a more predictable sound quality .

It can not explain why you like Diana Krall
And what does Diana Krall have to with anything?
 
Ok I’m gonna ask a probably dumb question. I rarely (never) listen to pink noise so I don’t know what it *should* sound like. If I test a single speaker using pink noise how will I know if something is wrong?
 
But if you're evaluating "spatial quality", then imo stereo listening is the better tool. I'm under the impression that the published data does not support my belief, so I may be mistaken.
Let's put aside the research. How would I be able to express my impression of spatial qualities of two speakers to a reader? My setup would be different. My music mix would be different. And my ability to detect spatial qualities would be different than someone else.
 
Imo it depends on what one is evaluating.

If you're evaluating "sound quality", then imo using a single speaker is definitely more revealing. This is why: As the ability to detect a spatial image improves, the ability to detect a timbral coloration decreases. (From a YouTube lecture by Francis Ramsey; let me know if you'd like the link.)

But if you're evaluating "spatial quality", then imo stereo listening is the better tool. I'm under the impression that the published data does not support my belief, so I may be mistaken.
That's why I carefully added the word 'also' in the two speakers sentence...
 
Let's put aside the research. How would I be able to express my impression of spatial qualities of two speakers to a reader? My setup would be different. My music mix would be different. And my ability to detect spatial qualities would be different than someone else.
maybe like this:?

1763193738203.png


From: the bang&olufson white paper on the beolab 90
 
And what does Diana Krall have to with anything?
My bad English, I tried to express that you can’t ask the research to explain everything related to speakers and listening to music, some questions are not the right questions and you should expect much of an explanation.
 
How would I be able to express my impression of spatial qualities of two speakers to a reader?

That's a good question. I don't know.

I would expect a speaker that is free from resonances to have good spatial qualities, with radiation pattern shape and the resulting room interaction naturally playing a role in just what those "good spatial qualities" are.

Speaking only for myself personally, I'm more confident in my ability to infer sound quality from a spin-o-rama than of my ability to infer spatial quality from a spin-o-rama.
 
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Ok I’m gonna ask a probably dumb question. I rarely (never) listen to pink noise so I don’t know what it *should* sound like. If I test a single speaker using pink noise how will I know if something is wrong?
I was wondering the same thing, on Erin’’s site he plays ‘pink noise’ and then the speaker under test playing ‘pink noise’.
REW can generate the pink noise but you have to play it through a loudspeaker, so how do you establish the unadulterated ‘pink noise’?
Keith
 
If I test a single speaker using pink noise how will I know if something is wrong?
I guess it will not be very different to the way one knows this for a track like "Fast Car" or any other.
Nevertheless, I had the same thought that pink noise may be very revealing for sound differences (between speakers), but might not be much of a good signal for preference rating.
But Toole remarked somewhere (4th ed? or here in a thread?) that pink noise is a signal characterised by the absence of any resonance.
So if I hear a difference it is from the appearance of resonances and this is considered to be the kind of flaw humans (can) react to.
I just tested this. Listening to plain pink noise in comparison to a version where two resonances (300Hz Q7+5dB, 1100Hz Q5 +4dB) were dialled in. The difference was very clearly audible and the (additional) resonances made the pink noise "uneven", "less smooth" - like blowing over a bottle. No problem to decide which version sounds "better" and more like the real thing.

For (very) low Q resonances this is probably somewhat different as these produce more some kind of "personality" or flavour of the sound the a "flaw" and I am not sure I could decide easily in this case.

So I would not use pink noise exclusively, more a variety of useful tracks, but pink noise seems to work for this.
 
I was wondering the same thing, on Erin’’s site he plays ‘pink noise’ and then the speaker under test playing ‘pink noise’.
REW can generate the pink noise but you have to play it through a loudspeaker, so how do you establish the unadulterated ‘pink noise’?
Keith

I don’t think Erin plays pink noise through a speaker when he provides those comparisons in his reviews. The raw pink noise is just pink noise directly generated from whatever app he uses - what we hear there is that pink noise digitally recorded (or imported) into the soundtrack of his video - no mic or speaker involved.

Then for the 2nd pink noise bit, which illustrates the speaker under review, he does the same thing, except prior to being recorded (or imported), he EQs it to match the speaker’s on-axis Spinorama response.

So the idea is that you’re hearing the speaker’s intrinsic on-axis nonlinearities.
 
Or, you may be correct. :)

The premise of evaluating tonal balance of a loudspeaker by listening to a single one is perfectly valid.
But, tonal balance is the limit of that evaluation.

Dave.
The only detail that might be of significance is that loudspeakers free from resonances tend not to draw attention to themselves in blind tests - they are more likely to "disappear" behind the screen revealing a greater sense of depth.
Otherwise, two neutral loudspeakers will reveal a stereo soundstage that is much more likely to be determined by the recording than by the playback apparatus. There is a discussion on another thread - "Dr. Toole's 4th Edition . . ." in which there are comments about directionality and interactions with the listening room. Depending on the specifics of the loudspeakers and room there will be subtle differences in spaciousness.
 
But if you're evaluating "spatial quality", then imo stereo listening is the better tool.
I'm ignorant but also curious how this could be possible. Surely whatever characteristics contribute to "spatial quality" are present in both speakers and thus can be identified with a single exemplar?
 
I'm ignorant but also curious how this could be possible. Surely whatever characteristics contribute to "spatial quality" are present in both speakers and thus can be identified with a single exemplar?

Great question!

Yes all of the characteristics which contribute to "spatial quality" are present in a single speaker (there may be a few rare exceptions, which we'll come to eventually). But I am not skilled enough to predict spatial quality preference in stereo between two otherwise competent loudspeakers based on their measurements alone. If that can be reliably done, I'd very much like to read about it.

There is probably a philosophical argument to the effect that the most revealing way to test something which shows up best in real-world use is to do a real-world test. Insert car analogy.

But instead of making that argument, I'll try to describe some specific situations that are arguably more applicable to spatial quality in stereo than they are to spatial quality in mono.

Just to be clear, my understanding is that spatial quality ranking in mono listening is highly predictive of spatial quality ranking in stereo listening. If there are exceptions to this trend, and if one is in search of the exceptional, then imo spatial quality evaluations done in stereo have some merit.

Here are a few specific situations that come to mind:

1. Cabinet edge diffraction is detectable as a resonance in measurements and presumably in mono listening. But cabinet edge diffraction arguably has a disproportionate impact on imaging. This is because those reflections arrive at the ear after a short enough time delay that they can generate false azimuth (horizontal directional) cues. While these reflections would be present when listening to a single speaker, there is no image to be degraded.

2. Proponents of phase-and-time coherent loudspeakers claim this approach improves imaging. My experience has been that improvements in this area can audibly improve image precision in stereo. Would this have been statistically as audible in mono listening? I don't know; all I can say is that my beta testers didn't remark on any spatial quality difference in mono but they quickly noticed it in stereo (they were unaware I had made a crossover update so it was "blind"). And I also realize that my data set is too small to "prove" anything. Note that manufacturers of time-and-phase coherent speakers usually make efforts to avoid edge diffraction, as edge diffraction degrades the early time-domain behavior.

3. Strong first same-side-wall reflections broaden the soundstage, arguably at the expense of degrading image localization precision. Some speakers have radiation patterns conducive to stereo setups that use extreme toe-in to avoid strong first same-side-wall reflections, substituting instead a considerably-later-arriving opposite-side-wall reflection, but I don't think its full spectrum of effects on spatial quality can be evaluated in a mono setup.

4. And finally, there have been a few speakers which employ unorthodox techniques aimed at improving spatial quality which require the interaction of two channels. Polk Audio's crosstalk-cancelling “Stereo Dimensional Arrays”; Beveridge's 180-degree pattern electrostats designed to face one another; and the DBX “Soundfield” speakers come to mind. I have been involved in one such project. I do not think the spatial quality of such speakers in stereo could be adequately evaluated in single-speaker listening.
 
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I would expect a speaker that is free from resonances to have good spatial qualities, with radiation pattern shape and the resulting room interaction naturally playing a role in just what those "good spatial qualities" are.
But if you're evaluating "spatial quality", then imo stereo listening is the better tool. I'm under the impression that the published data does not support my belief, so I may be mistaken.

1763241337021.png


Hi Duke,

your premise would suggest that the spatial quality scores would be more spread out (finely differentiated) on the above chart (Sound Reproduction, 1st ed.) under stereo than under mono. Instead, it's the opposite. It brings your premise under question. It seems, above, that we are better able to distinguish spatial quality in mono.

Speaking only for myself personally, I'm more confident in my ability to infer sound quality from a spin-o-rama than of my ability to infer spatial quality from a spin-o-rama.
In relation to the above chart, Dr Toole (@Floyd Toole) noted:-

1763241306399.png


Regarding these strong opinions on spatial qualities from single speakers:-

1763241281405.png

If one is tracking the other, then, to answer your question, perhaps once could infer a spatial result from a spinorama?

1763241251520.png


This final passage, especially, suggests the listener becomes far more indecisive about spatial quality when listening in stereo.

This could be why, as Dr Toole noted in post #794 above, good/neutral speakers are really allowing us to hear the spatial qualities embedded into the recording.

On a personal note, I have always wondered, when reading yours and others' comments that surely we need 2 speakers to evaluate spatial qualities for stereo playback, then surely we would need 5 or 7 to evaluate spatial qualities for surround sound, and 9 or 13 to evaluate spatial qualities for Atmos/Auro playback? Instead, as long as the speaker has good spinoramas, both it and the room seem to become less relevant when played in multiples. OTOH if the speaker is, dare I say, a baddie in terms of spinorama, it dramatically brings attention to itself and creates odd spatial qualities that may well be different when different numbers of the speaker are being played.

cheers

[edit: I wrote this before seeing your post above, so please don't assume I ignored it! :cool: ]
 
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View attachment 490775

Hi Duke,

your premise would suggest that the spatial quality scores would be more spread out (finely differentiated) on the above chart (Sound Reproduction, 1st ed.) under stereo than under mono. Instead, it's the opposite. It brings your premise under question. It seems, above, that we are better able to distinguish spatial quality in mono.


In relation to the above chart, Dr Toole (@Floyd Toole) noted:-

View attachment 490774

Regarding these strong opinions on spatial qualities from single speakers:-

View attachment 490773
If one is tracking the other, then, to answer your question, perhaps once could infer a spatial result from a spinorama?

View attachment 490772

This final passage, especially, suggests the listener becomes far more indecisive about spatial quality when listening in stereo.

This could be why, as Dr Toole noted in post #794 above, good/neutral speakers are really allowing us to hear the spatial qualities embedded into the recording.

On a personal note, I have always wondered, when reading yours and others' comments that surely we need 2 speakers to evaluate spatial qualities for stereo playback, then surely we would need 5 or 7 to evaluate spatial qualities for surround sound, and 9 or 13 to evaluate spatial qualities for Atmos/Auro playback? Instead, as long as the speaker has good spinoramas, both it and the room seem to become less relevant when played in multiples. OTOH if the speaker is, dare I say, a baddie in terms of spinorama, it dramatically brings attention to itself and creates odd spatial qualities that may well be different when different numbers of the speaker are being played.

cheers

[edit: I wrote this before seeing your post above, so please don't assume I ignored it! :cool: ]

Dangit. I hate it when you make really good points that contradict my thinking. And I hate it even more when you're way too much of a gentleman about it for me to find an excuse to take offense and thereby change the subject.

Well if the data says I'm wrong, and the data covers the full range of situations that could come into play, then I'm wrong!

As you've probably figured out, I have a bias in favor of my unorthodox approach to getting good spatial quality. I do not think my approach would do anything noteworthy in mono. So if I'm honest with myself, I clearly have an incentive to "find a way to leave the door open" for my unorthodox approach to have merit even if it probably won't show up in mono.

"Probably..." and "I do not think...". Hmmm. I've been going on assumptions.

Inspired by your post, I just got off the phone with one of my beta-testers. He has a good listening room, and is going to set up a single-speaker-versus-single-speaker evaluation of spatial quality. This won't have Harman-level controls in place but it will be single-blind and level-matched. This will be somewhat backwards - it will give us a large-pixeled look into whether spatial quality in stereo is predictive of spatial quality in mono, for what we're doing.

So, thanks for the inspiration!

And as they say where you come from,

cheers!

Edited to add: Floyd Toole's finding that stereo partially masks colorations and therefore obscures sound quality differences between speakers is supported by Francis Rumsey in this lecture. The way Rumsey puts it goes something like this: "As the ability to detect a spatial image improves, the ability to detect a timbral coloration decreases". He calls this phenomenon "decoloration". The link should be cued up to the relevant part; he starts out talking about the familiar 2 kHz comb filter notch in stereo but stick with it for the next five minutes or so:

 
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Wonderful post(s) Dr Toole.

On the more “ subjectivist oriented” audio forums I’ve been advocating for the relevance of your work for as long as I can remember. I would hope that any person getting into this hobby encounters your work first, to be informed and have a sensible starting point.

As the title slide says: liking the loudspeakers is the answer to the wrong question. Get some neutral loudspeakers and find art you enjoy. Tone controls and accessible EQ are still legitimate manipulations, but one can always default to neutral to hear what was recorded. It might be good.

That is obviously a very reasonable approach to this hobby of ours, as a guide to buying audio gear and loudspeakers specifically. Any audiophile would do well to consider it.

I’d just like to add a caveat, and submit a justification for an alternative approach to enjoying the hobby that I and some other audiophiles share. To show my hand: I remain very much in the “ liking the loudspeaker” camp.

It seems the lesson from your research, and one generally adopted on ASR, is that the ideal would be that loudspeakers, if all were properly designed, should (with certain caveats ) sound roughly the same, and there’s no reason to bother with anything that doesn’t measure to the criteria we have established. Look for these type of measurements and you’ve got a good loudspeaker and no reason to bother with anything else that strays is too far. If you want to change the sound do it with EQ.

For simplicity, leaving aside some caveats, I’ll just call this the “Single Criteria” (SC) approach.

But an alternative view can somewhat flip this on his head:

The fact that so many loudspeakers measure and sound different is interesting and enjoyable in of itself to experience.

It’s part of the fun!

I’ll call this the Open Criteria (OC) approach.

So if we take a visit to our average high end audio show, we’ll encounter speaker designs that are all over the map, plenty of them colored and sub-optimal by the “ Single Criteria “ approach. It’s sort of like the wild West of audio.

Somebody with the SC approach could find this a reason to despair: so many coloured and poorly designed loudspeakers. Why bother with them? If only people could all get on board and start designing all loudspeakers “properly.”

Whereas somebody with the OC mindset might enter the show and see all sorts of different, crazy-looking designs and wonder “Wow, what do THOSE sound like?” And just find it tons of fun to experience all the different types of sonic presentations, even recognizing plenty of them are not without colorations.

Example: at one audio show there were some ridiculous looking loudspeakers which were something like lowther drivers placed in the centre of gigantic umbrella-sized plastic lenses focussing the sound to the listener.

They we’re not neutral, but sitting in the sweet spot with my eyes closed listening to a recording of solo classical guitar, it was the most uncannily realistic sensation of a clear, sonically dense impression of a person playing a guitar in front of me that I’ve ever heard from a sound system, stereo or surround. A one trick pony system? Very likely. But wow, was it fun to experience that one trick!

I’m glad somebody had the wacky idea for those speakers.

Along those lines, I’ve owned many different speakers over the years, all sorts of designs from dipoles (Quad 63s/gradient dipole subs), to Omnis (MBL), different takes on traditional speakers (first order designs from Thiel, high order crossover designs from other companies, BBC old school monitors, interesting “egg shaped” designs from Waveform and many others).

If I had been of the SC school of thought I could’ve bought a pair of Revels decades ago (I have auditioned Revels throughout the years), and a pre-amplifier with EQ or tone controls, and that would’ve been it.

But even if under strictly controlled blind conditions I may have identified Revel speakers as sounding better than all of those speakers, I still prefer my loudspeaker owning history as I don’t regret a single pair of speakers I’ve owned. Every single one sounded different and interesting and enjoyable in its own way. Each one representing the goals, quirks and vision of that particular designer. Not to mention I enjoyed the different aesthetics and design concepts.

And I could not have re-created all those exact differences, simply using tone controls or EQ.

Nor with EQ could I re-create my experimenting with changing loudspeaker positions and listening positions in my room, altering reflections, adding diffusion, etc.

Some audiophiles like the “playing with sound” aspect of the hobby, which can sometimes be achieved by owning and playing with different gear rather than just neutral speakers and EQ. (you’re not gonna mimic the sound of some of those wild looking gigantic tube driven horn systems simply with a pair of Revels and EQ).

None of this is to advocate for this approach over the one you suggest. Nor does it broach the other subject of accuracy as a consistent criteria and trying to “close the circle of confusion.” I just wanted to provide one justification for why some folks, like me, might not be fully satisfied with “just use this criteria for purchasing loudspeakers, and add tone controls EQ if desired.”

Cheers.

(Though if I was in a position of advising somebody new to the hobby, the reasonable thing to do is to make them aware of your research and approach first of all, from which they can make advised decisions on what route they want to go).
 
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Let's put aside the research. How would I be able to express my impression of spatial qualities of two speakers to a reader? My setup would be different. My music mix would be different. And my ability to detect spatial qualities would be different than someone else.

I don’t see why that seems so out of reach.

Even Dr Toole has had to go at describing the different spatial qualities of well designed loudspeakers versus those with audible resonances.

So let’s take a possible example :

You’ve got two loudspeakers to compare :

Speaker A is very well designed, neutral, well controlled off access behaviour, no audible resonances.

Speaker B is “ poorly designed” with colouration in the frequency response and off access response and audible resonances.

You play a whole bunch of different music tracks through these of a type that would reveal the sonic consequences of those different designs.

Here are some plausible differences that could be heard and described.

With speaker B, hard panned sounds left or right, have a quality of being “ stuck to” the front of the loudspeaker, giving the clear sense of being generated by the loudspeaker.

With speaker A, hard panned sounds do not have this quality of sound “ stuck” to or stuck in the loudspeaker. Instead the sounds, while coming from the general location of loudspeaker, seem to nonetheless float in their own space independent of loudspeaker.

It gives a sense of the sound being near the location of loudspeaker, but not “ stuck in” or “ being pushed out of the loudspeaker.”

And when you have this phenomenon, it creates the sensation that the loudspeakers are not producing the sound so much as they are physical objects around which the sound is simply occurring.

This is the “ disappearing speakers” - “ disappearing as apparent sound sources “ - effect so many people try to describe.

And along with this may come all sorts of additional things to notice about the spatial presentation.

The tendency, with Speaker B, for sound objects to the left right of the sound stage to glom into the loudspeakers can create more of a reliably “U-shaped” soundstage across many recordings. VS speaker A in which all sounds float free of the speakers, allowing for more spacious and more differentiated soundsstaging behaviour.

Speaker A maybe capable of producing more spaciously layered imaging and achieve the sense of more depth on many recordings as well. Whereas speaker B may how the tendency to produce a more squashed, flatter sound stage with the images of instruments, seeming to be drawn closer to the listener, less space between them, giving more of a flatter “ wall of sound” presentation than speaker A.

Speaker A may also produce Sonic images with more apparent precision and focus, versus speaker B in which images may seem a bit larger and more diffuse.

Etc.

And so far as we’re talking about loudspeakers that really do have these differences in their physical design, there’s no reason these type of differences can’t be teased out by any number of listeners able to compare them with a range of relevant music.

As it happens, the type of differences I’m describing relate to certain speaker designs I’m familiar with, as well as other audiophiles - for instance the difference between the Joseph speakers, I auditioned and bought (more like speaker A) versus the old school 2-way wide baffle Devore 93 speakers (speaker B) which have colorations and resonances. I listened to the Devores in various different set ups and different rooms, from smallest to very large, and the imaging presentation seemed quite consistent, and it’s one reason I chose the Joseph speakers because I like speakers that seem to disappear and which can image with precision, layering, and depth.

This is clearly not going to give us totally precise and utterly reliable conclusions. But plenty of those who have listened to or owned the Devore 93 have come to similar conclusions about their imaging characteristics, versus other speakers that tend to disappear more an image with more precision, layering, and depth.

I remember for instance the Rush 2112 track “ discovery” which portrays somebody discovering an electric guitar in a cave, slowly tuning, and plucking the strings and eventually strumming the guitar.

On the Devore 93 I had a very strong sensation of somebody playing that guitar
“right in front of me.” The same track on either my Joseph or Thiel speakers sounded more like a cave had (acoustically) opened up in front of me, with a sense of that guitar being played from more of a distance in the cave. Both presentations were pretty cool, but ultimately, I preferred the immersion of the Joseph/Thiel presentation.
 
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