Why evaluating the sound of a single speaker is essential

[MattHooper]

I know absolutism is fun for some folks, but…

In that case, multichannel playback is a non-negotiable.

In principle.

In practice, in the real world of variables and trade offs, it’s quite negotiable.

 

[MarkS]

What I will do is ask you not to say there is no modern MCH recording that compares with a given classic performance of the 20th Century. That's a cop out. Compare them with contemporaneous stereo-only recordings and you will find many winners.

Oh absolutely, I'm much more into current performers and recordings than older stuff (which, IMO, was often quite badly recorded).

 

[Elkerton]

I've published more than a 100 recommendations in my MITR articles and many more in my reviews. I have my favorites among the couple of thousand that I have on file but I am not going to sit down and select to your specific requirements. There are a lot to choose from.

What I will do is ask you not to say there is no modern MCH recording that compares with a given classic performance of the 20th Century. That's a cop out. Compare them with contemporaneous stereo-only recordings and you will find many winners.

O, that's too bad, Kal. I've read all of the MITR columns and still have always wished I discovered a list of your favourites.

I'll have a go at a couple of Mark's request:

Haitink's LSO recording of Beehoven 9th and Barry Wordsworh's RPO 7th

 

[Kal Rubinson]

O, that's too bad, Kal. I've read all of the MITR columns and still have always wished I discovered a list of your favourites.

Sorry. It requires some serious effort, and maybe it's the time of the month (deadlines), but I just don't have the energy to undertake that task now.

 

[Elkerton]

Sorry. It requires some serious effort, and maybe it's the time of the month (deadlines), but I just don't have the energy to undertake that task now.

Someday… (he wrote hopefully)

 

[MarkS]

I'll have a go at a couple of Mark's request:

Haitink's LSO recording of Beehoven 9th and Barry Wordsworh's RPO 7th

I listened to the Haitink/LSO Beethoven 9 (4th movement) in stereo, and it was ... not good. The sound was tightly confined between the speakers and very centered. Orchestra, chorus, soloists: all dead center. Not at all what one hears live from a mid-hall seat.

I've no doubt that recording would be greatly improved by multichannel. I was desperate for a broader soundstage! I suspect the engineers were focused on multichannel and that it was stereo that was the afterthought.

For comparison I switched to the Telarc 1986 recording with Dohnanyi/Cleveland. SO much better! Closing my eyes I could clearly "see" the orchestra spread out, the chorus behind them, the soloists to the right, everything where it should be.

Could that be further improved by multichannel? Maybe. But for me that would be well into the realm of diminishing returns for the added cost and complexity.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

For my 2cents, the Haitink LSO Beethoven 9th is fine but it is not a go-to. Of the modern MCH ones, these are worth hearing:
Savall on Alia Vox
Vanska on BIS
P. Jarvi on RCA
von Immerseel on ZigZag/Northstar

and, taking a different tack:
Honeck on RR
Noseda on NSO

 

[sfogg]

For comparison I switched to the Telarc 1986 recording with Dohnanyi/Cleveland. SO much better! Closing my eyes I could clearly "see" the orchestra spread out, the chorus behind them, the soloists to the right, everything where it should be.

Could that be further improved by multichannel? Maybe. But for me that would be well into the realm of diminishing returns for the added cost and complexity.

I'll give this a longer listen later on but playing the same album and going from 2 channel then expanding it out to surround sound the soundstage gains more depth, layering and detail and the sense of being in a large acoustic space increases considerably as now the reverberant tails are playing from sides/rears/above. It shifts from looking into the recording to more of being there.

 

[Newman]

The Telarc recordings ... a very natural sound but without a clear pinpoint like soundstage.

Well, I don't hear "a clear pinpoint like soundstage" at the many live classical performances that I attend regularly, so that's not an issue as far as I'm concerned.

I listened to the Haitink/LSO Beethoven 9 (4th movement) in stereo, and it was ... not good. The sound was tightly confined between the speakers and very centered. Orchestra, chorus, soloists: all dead center. Not at all what one hears live from a mid-hall seat. ....I was desperate for a broader soundstage!

...For comparison I switched to the Telarc 1986 recording with Dohnanyi/Cleveland. SO much better! Closing my eyes I could clearly "see" the orchestra spread out, the chorus behind them, the soloists to the right, everything where it should be...

Isn't that what Torin means by "a clear pinpoint like soundstage", ie the ability to locate the sections separately in the soundstage?

 

[bmc0]

Isn't that what Torin means by "a clear pinpoint like soundstage"

Probably not. To me, "pinpoint" means very sharply localized. You don't generally get this in a concert hall (perhaps in the first row or two in some halls) because the early reflections increase the apparent source width. You can still localize sources to an extent, but they sound bigger/wider with a less well-defined location.

 

[MarkS]

For my 2cents, the Haitink LSO Beethoven 9th is fine but it is not a go-to. Of the modern MCH ones, these are worth hearing:
Savall on Alia Vox

OK now we're talking! I'm a huge fan of Jordi Savall as a master of the viola de gamba, but have not really followed his efforts as a conductor. He is of course using original instrument tuning and correct tempi, so sign me up!

Sound in stereo is mostly good. We've got a row-5 perspective rather than the Telarc row-20, which I prefer. Realistic soundstaging except for the intro baritone solo, which is unrealistically prominent and centered. (This is also noted at theclassicreview.com, so I'm not crazy.)

I can definitely understand how extra sound from the sides would enhance this one. The row-5 perspective would benefit from that, the Telarc row-20 much less so IMO.

Now I need to get a copy of the SACD and find someplace to hear it in MCH.

 

[Torin Krell]

Probably not. To me, "pinpoint" means very sharply localized. You don't generally get this in a concert hall (perhaps in the first row or two in some halls) because the early reflections increase the apparent source width. You can still localize sources to an extent, but they sound bigger/wider with a less well-defined location.

I think we are mostly on the same page here. I was describing how the techniques used by Telarc (using minimal miking - usually 3 spaced omni mics etc) seem successful at capturing the natural mid-hall sound and ambience of a good concert hall rather than the "sharply localized" "clear pinpoint like soundstage" that one may experience in the first few rows of a concert hall, and hear in close perspective multi-miked recordings. My reference is Carnegie Hall (mid hall or at the front of the lowest balcony). I personally enjoy a mid hall perspective (especially in superior concert halls) while others may prefer a closer more upfront one.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Now I need to get a copy of the SACD and find someplace to hear it in MCH.

Where are you located?

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Someday… (he wrote hopefully)

In the mean time, here's a quick-and-dirty listing of the RITR selections:

 

[MarkS]

Where are you located?

Southern California, specifically Santa Barbara, but I do get to LA reasonably often.

 

[Elkerton]

In the mean time, here's a quick-and-dirty listing of the RITR selections:

ta very much

 

[LSPhil]

Unfortunately, I cannot agree with the premise. A few days ago, I connected the SB12MNRX with the Peerless byTymphany D27TG35-06. Out of curiosity, I have now added the DaytonAudio Epique E180HE-44. As usual, I have been experimenting withthese drivers in a single test enclosure, combining them in differentways. When summing the left and right channels (L+R) into mono, Inoticed that in the high-frequency range you get a mixture ofdifferent tones, which produces a sense of harshness or an increasein distortion. Listening to Vivaldi’s Four Seasons, thecharacter of the violins changed almost constantly, and with just asingle channel (L or R) there was simply far too much reverberation.Older recordings that are less reliant on stereo separation , forexample, Fleetwood Mac , were somewhat less affected. But overall,the thesis that a single loudspeaker evaluation is “essential” issomething I cannot confirm. At best, listening to a single speakercan reveal how well the woofer and tweeter integrate: their crossoverfrequency, slope, or time alignment. Only yesterday, I attended aperformance in a church by a local string ensemble, and I was deeplyimpressed by the tone of the violins and the musicians’interpretation. Comparing that real experience to mono listening athome made the flaw very clear. Music reproduced through a singleloudspeaker in mono is simply a deception , the life, space, andauthenticity of the performance disappear.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

OK now we're talking! I'm a huge fan of Jordi Savall as a master of the viola de gamba, but have not really followed his efforts as a conductor. He is of course using original instrument tuning and correct tempi, so sign me up!

You should try the Immerseel set. Beethoven-complete-symphonies

 

[MarkS]

You should try the Immerseel set. Beethoven-complete-symphonies

Wow. Thank you. Apple Music has this in stereo. (I'm continually amazed at how complete Apple Music is.) I listened to the 9th all the way through. Great performance (all the 20th-century bloat and blubber on the cutting room floor where it belongs) and great stereo recording. Wide soundstage well beyond the speakers. Engineers knew to capture the out-of-phase info necessary for this. Nit pick: baritone solo once again too prominent. Engineers! no human voice is that loud compared to an orchestra (even a small orchestra like this one) unless he's two feet away.

Kal, I am very impressed by your clearly vast knowledge of the classical catalog. I doff my hat to you sir!

And yes, I can easily intuit that this recording would be further enhanced by side sound in multichannel (though a center channel does not seem like it would add anything, at least not for a centered listening position).

But I'm already slack-jawed on the couch from the stereo version. And I'd have to pay $178 for the MCH version because Apple doesn't have it. And buy 3 more speakers and amps and an A/V processor and figure out how to run cables to the side speakers which would probably require going into the walls ...

 

[Kal Rubinson]

But I'm already slack-jawed on the couch from the stereo version. And I'd have to pay $178 for the MCH version because Apple doesn't have it. And buy 3 more speakers and amps and an A/V processor and figure out how to run cables to the side speakers which would probably require going into the walls ...

Well, it's great fun that's legal, can be shared and doesn't harm people. I had a deadline today so I did the work and listened (thanks to our exchanges) to the first seven symphonies in 5.1 at 24/352.8!!! Wonderful stuff.