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Why evaluating the sound of a single speaker is essential

Your analogies are bad, just like your arguments.
No, they're absolutely valid. I did not deny the efficacy of measuring a single speaker. I am absolutely stating that no one listens to single speakers when they listen to music, it's half of what the consumer purchased and therefore, is not representative of what someone would experience in their home.

It is therefore not a test 95% of consumers would consider valuable.

If you cannot get off your high horse to understand that basic argument, then that's your issue.
 
And no one sits around all day doing speaker evaluation listening for enjoyment of music. If you do however want to evaluate a speaker, there are good reasons mono is more revealing than stereo. Amir has a video on that.
And there are very good reasons not to do it. Measuring the speaker as a single unit is perfectly fine, and I absolutely understand you can pick apart distortion much easier, but if it's already born out in the data, and no one listens to a single speaker, why do it?

That is a fairly rudimentary observation.
 
And there are very good reasons not to do it. Measuring the speaker as a single unit is perfectly fine, and I absolutely understand you can pick apart distortion much easier, but if it's already born out in the data, and no one listens to a single speaker, why do it?

That is a fairly rudimentary observation.
No, they're absolutely valid. I did not deny the efficacy of measuring a single speaker. I am absolutely stating that no one listens to single speakers when they listen to music, it's half of what the consumer purchased and therefore, is not representative of what someone would experience in their home.

It is therefore not a test 95% of consumers would consider valuable.

If you cannot get off your high horse to understand that basic argument, then that's your issue.
Nonetheless, from this point onwards, several members, including the esteemed Dr Toole himself, have made you sufficiently aware of the science behind the single speaker evaluation, that your choice to focus on the validity of your analogy instead of the substance of the issue at hand, makes you look denialistic.

cheers
 
And there are very good reasons not to do it. Measuring the speaker as a single unit is perfectly fine, and I absolutely understand you can pick apart distortion much easier, but if it's already born out in the data, and no one listens to a single speaker, why do it?

That is a fairly rudimentary observation.
Because it has been learned that one is more discerning of loudspeaker difference listening to one speaker. So in a review or evaluation that is the better way to listen. Your rudimentary observation seems right until you learn that someone researched the matter and surprisingly found otherwise.
 
I just discovered Techno a few months ago......I'm 58. I can't get enough of it. Why....? Because some of it has crazy complex tones & all levels of bass & real 100 ish slam . Reason I bring this up is it might not be the music your comfortable with that is a test of what ya got going on.
If you're diving into that style, I recommend checking out for example, Lane 8, Kygo, Ben Böhmer, and NTO.
Many people are quick to dismiss EDM and techno as simplistic or inferior, but the reality is quite the opposite. A lot of it will truly put your system to the test and is really well produced with many layers.
 
A forum member has just alerted me to this discussion, and my name is being circulated, so I have decided to add some clarification. The topic of sound quality is of fundamental importance, and stereo soundstage and imaging are undeniably key factors in our entertainment. However, the factors affecting all of these perceptual dimensions interact with each other, sometimes in destructive ways. Adding enormous complications is the fact that much of what matters to all factors, especially soundstage and imaging is determined by recordings. Stereo is a directionally and spatially deprived format, and since its inception listeners have sought to "fill in the blanks" with imaginative loudspeaker designs, electronic processing, and audio jewelry of various kinds. There is no "hardware" solution, no "perfect" loudspeaker or wire or amplifier that will suddenly bring "reality" to the listening room. But, audio forum activity indicates no end of trying. In this context, the notion of evaluating loudspeakers in mono sounds ludicrous - or is it?

The manuscript of the 4th edition of my book is now with the publisher, anticipating publication around September. In it this subject is, I would like to think, exhaustively examined and explained, using scientific evidence. Long story short, human listeners are increasingly less sensitive to sound quality degradations in loudspeakers as the channel count is increased from one to two and two to five. The overall result of adding channels is more spatial and directional information, which can be highly entertaining, but the end result is that the binaural hearing system has difficulty separating the spatial cues in the recordings, from the spatial cues in the listening room. Increasing channel count increases the persuasion of the recorded space. As a result listeners are unable to discern timbral errors caused by resonances in loudspeakers with the same sensitivity as in mono/single-loudspeaker comparisons.

The reality is that most stereo and multichannel recordings include isolated, hard-panned, sound images providing instances when the true character of the loudspeakers can be heard. In simple stereo recordings instruments often appear in left and right loudspeakers - mono. All phantom images are double mono. This explains why loudspeakers that win monophonic comparison tests always win stereo and multichannel tests, The reverse is not always true. So, to determine how good your loudspeakers are, do comparison listening tests in mono. Then, if they are good, impress your friends in stereo and multichannel - but choose the recordings carefully: they are a major determinant of what is heard.

Here is something I wrote a couple of years ago - it is long but still not the complete story, as it is currently understood.
If we used 12 speakers, would all the speakers sound the same? Or would even superb loudspeakers sound average? ;)
 
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If we used 12 speakers, would all the speakers sound the same? Or would even superb loudspeakers sound average? ;)
I think the idea is that the more speakers used, the harder it is to spot their flaws, so they sound better, not dumbed-down to 'average'.
 
And there are very good reasons not to do it. Measuring the speaker as a single unit is perfectly fine, and I absolutely understand you can pick apart distortion much easier, but if it's already born out in the data, and no one listens to a single speaker, why do it?

That is a fairly rudimentary observation.
Do you want the reviewer to accurately analyze the tonality of the speaker or not? If the answer is the former, then mono testing is a must. As is, non trained listeners are poor in reliably finding these colorations. Test the system in stereo and all hope is lost.

Besides, the test will never represent your situation. Reviewer's room is likely to be wildly different than yours so what they hear as far as spatiality in stereo is not going to represent your use. They also don't listen to your music.
 
Question is should I put together a pair of Genelec 8361a speakers or 5 channels of 8331a speakers or 32 channels of LSR 305s (and one big sub)?
I once put a similar question to Floyd Toole. Here is his reply, link
 
I once put a similar question to Floyd Toole. Here is his reply, link
Well good information. Then again what he described as his choice was a 7.4.6 system. Even 17 speakers becomes challenging to put into a room. I currently run a 5.3 setup.
 
Well good information. Then again what he described as his choice was a 7.4.6 system. Even 17 speakers becomes challenging to put into a room. I currently run a 5.3 setup.
His answer to the question was actually 5.2 or 5.4. Pretty close to your current setup.
 
If we used 12 speakers, would all the speakers sound the same? Or would even superb loudspeakers sound average? ;)
You can get away with objectively lower-quality speakers in a surround setup compared to a stereo setup. Simply put, your brain's processing power is divided among the number of sound sources. With 11 sources, each one gets only a fraction of your attention. With two, the focus is much sharper. With just one, there’s nowhere to hide -your full attention is on that single source.
 
Seems like a proper Speaker test incorporates an Objective component and Subjective component.

The Objective component would be analyzed with one speaker only. Two speakers on mono test signal would be moot.
The Subjective component would be analyzed by listener with two speakers in stereo.

Is it possible for a Speaker to fail miserably on Objective analysis, but pass favorably on Subjective analysis?

I am leaning No.
 
Well...https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/wilson-audio-tunetot-review-high-end-bookshelf-speaker.29219/
OK, correction

The Objective component would be analyzed with one speaker only. Two speakers on mono test signal would be moot.
The Subjective component would be analyzed by listener with two speakers in stereo.

Is it possible for a Speaker to fail miserably on Objective analysis, but pass favorably on NON EQ'ED Subjective analysis?

I am leaning No.
 
Seems like a proper Speaker test incorporates an Objective component and Subjective component.
"Proper" is impossible to define for a subjective test that depends upon the reviewer's room, taste, and so forth. Your room, taste in music, preferred EQ, etc. are not in general going to match the reviewer. There are plenty of subjective review sites; ASR focuses on objective measurements rarely provided elsewhere.

The Objective component would be analyzed with one speaker only. Two speakers on mono test signal would be moot.
The Subjective component would be analyzed by listener with two speakers in stereo.
See above. Subjective reviews may not match how you would review the same speaker.

Is it possible for a Speaker to fail miserably on Objective analysis, but pass favorably on Subjective analysis?
Of course, and there are many examples of this. We are less sensitive to distortion than many think, and a speaker's objective problems may be something you prefer, like over- or under-emphasized treble or bass that may complement your room's response or simply match your taste.
 
Of course, and there are many examples of this. We are less sensitive to distortion than many think, and a speaker's objective problems may be something you prefer, like over- or under-emphasized treble or bass that may complement your room's response or simply match your taste.

Touché...
 
Modern painting "masterpieces" miserably fail on objective analysis but in many people pass triumphantly the subjective one . It's a endless discussion .
Not at all. It's completely acceptable to have different sound preferences and favor non-neutral speakers.
 
I listened to a single speaker for years in the past.

And upstairs now in a bigger 18’ x 25’ open concept kitchen / living room, I’m using a single m106 raised up out from a corner.

But for maybe 10 years I ran a (better) clone of a jbl 4732. Initially I had only 1 (free) jbl 4509 cabinet that I bought discontinued eminence magnum 15lf woofers. Started with an ev 291 (I think) compression driver on an ev hr90 diffraction horn. Later upgraded to a 2384 horn and a prohibitively expensive jbl 2435h with a beryllium diaphragm. It had excellent bass, sub bass, and dispersion.

It was huge to look at.

I upgraded 4 years ago to a pair of jbl 12” 2-ways (better mids/highs but missing some punch and even less subwoofery bass).

The main change was due to switching from an active crossover (one input, also used as a volume control), to a receiver.

Before it was dvd/blu ray, or a cd as a source only.

Since then (stereo receiver), music has been playing 24 hours a day, and I like jazz now (local college station).

Even to this day, I appreciate detail, bass, and dynamics over imaging.

Honestly, I could care less about imaging……..
 
H-m-m-m. Let us first get the horse in front of the cart. The definitive comment on loudspeaker performance is how it sounds - that is a subjective judgement. Ideally, one would want the loudspeaker to be a "transparent", neutral reproducer, so we get to hear what the artists created for us. If we don't like what we hear, then we can play with tone controls, equalization, to see if it can be improved. That is the basis of the audio industry.

The problem with subjective judgments is that humans are influenced by much more than the sound. Appearance, price, brand, other opinions and reviews all exercise bias in forming our opinions - the evidence is abundant. The worst subjective evaluations are those conducted in the fully sighted,"take it home and listen to it" method used by most reviewers and virtually all a casual listeners. There are no references, and adaptation sets it. Some call it "breaking in", but it is humans adapting, not electronic or mechanical devices changing. This practice has been the basis of audio opinions from day one, and it has led to the notion that we all must find the loudspeaker we like, because we all "hear differently".

Proof that this is rubbish was revealed to me in 1966 when I conducted my first blind, loudness equalized, four-loudspeaker comparison test at the National Research Council of Canada. The loudspeakers of that era were very distinctively "colored", not at all neutral, but most of the listeners in the group agreed on what was good sounding, even those who criticized the loudspeakers they selected and lived with at home. When they heard something "better" they preferred it. Where were the personal preferences? The second important observation was that the loudspeakers most preferred had the best looking - i.e. flattest and smoothest - anechoic frequency responses. These logically should be the most neutral. All electronics, even then, had ruler flat frequency responses. Why would loudspeakers be different?

There began a research career that extended over 5 decades, many papers, three books, an industry loudspeaker measurement standard, and many fundamentally neutral loudspeakers in the marketplace. For those willing to read, the scientific proofs are there, and have been for many years. An hour and 14 minutes will give a good summary of some of the key science:

Now we can recognize a neutral loudspeaker by inspecting the right set of anechoic measurements. This does not ensure satisfaction because recordings vary - they are created in recording control and mastering rooms by people listening through unknown loudspeakers in unknown rooms. It is wrong to assume that recordings are flawless, and all audible faults are attributable to the playback apparatus. Stereo soundstage and imaging are primarily determined in the recording control room, and there are no standards. Playback apparatus and rooms matter, but at a secondary level.

Except: A fact that cannot be ignored is that bass accounts for about 30% of one's overall evaluation of sound quality, and bass sound quality is dominated by the listening room - and they are all different. Arguably this is the weakest link in sound reproduction, but it is often ignored. There are excellent multiple subwoofer solutions to room resonance problems, but most people think that a bigger sub is the solution - or bigger tower speakers. Wrong.
 
Not at all. It's completely acceptable to have different sound preferences and favor non-neutral speakers.
It's acceptable, but it is so much less common than the myth ("we all hear differently") would have us believe. Indeed, it is fair to call it rare, among people who don't have substantial hearing damage.

Controlled listening has shown that system-wide neutrality is preferred to non-neutrality, and it is common-sense logical too, since we have the real world of natural sound sources as our baseline.

The only way that non-neutral speakers would be preferred would be if some other part of the chain was non-neutral, and the speakers were helping to counter that. That's why I wrote 'system-wide neutrality' above. Start with a neutrally-balanced mastering, recording/playback source, and amplifier, (all of which is common today, especially digitally), and neutral speakers are the only safe bet.

cheers

[edit: I see @Floyd Toole has gazumped me! Read him instead, of course!]
 
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