• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Why Don't High SINAD Receivers Exist?

3dbinCanada

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2020
Messages
408
Likes
242
If you listen in "pure direct", a digital PCM signal will go through the DAC stage but not the DSP stage, if you want to listen to a room corrected analog signal of e.g. a turntable, you are no longer listening via "PureDirect".
Keep in mind, I was talking about digital input only. .

I agree. You are correct that a digital PCM even in pure direct mode goes through a DAC but thats where the processing stops. Bass management is no longer available and neither is YPAO. I was talking about analog signals in such as phono and analog line level inputs. Engaging Pure Direct with these inputs keeps the signal in the analog domain and there is no bass management or room correction available. Nor are the other channels available; just front left and right .

I also have configured the AVR to go one level out of Pure Direct when I want to engage the sub for music containing pipe organ. I say one level out from Pure Direct in that YPAO still remains off but I use bass management to route the bass to the sub instead of my towers.


Because Audio folks are paranoid and many detest any processing whatsoever.
Also: it does make sense to provide it when you work with analog paths and want to make it clear to the user that you can bypass the built in DSP if you choose to do so.

So yes, they will implement a "pure direct" button, whether it actually does result in a cleaner signal path for digital signals or not.

I use Pure Direct because I want to hear my speakers without room correction when listening to 2 channel music. Its a personal quirk of mine and not out of paranoia..

Why do I feel someone is watching me? :p
 

Aerith Gainsborough

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
May 4, 2020
Messages
853
Likes
1,280
I use Pure Direct because I want to hear my speakers without room correction when listening to 2 channel music. Its a personal quirk of mine and not out of paranoia.

Why do I feel someone is watching me? :p
My friend is the same. He prefers his speakers uncorrected over Dirac as well.

Just because you aren't paranoid, does not mean they are not after you!
*adjusts tinfoil hat*
 

Newman

Major Contributor
Joined
Jan 6, 2017
Messages
3,453
Likes
4,216
I agree. You are correct that a digital PCM even in pure direct mode goes through a DAC but thats where the processing stops. Bass management is no longer available and neither is YPAO. I was talking about analog signals in such as phono and analog line level inputs. Engaging Pure Direct with these inputs keeps the signal in the analog domain and there is no bass management or room correction available. Nor are the other channels available; just front left and right .

Like this (from Yamaha RX863):

Pure Direct Yamaha RX-V863.jpg
 

lashto

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 8, 2019
Messages
1,045
Likes
535
If you listen in "pure direct", a digital PCM signal will go through the DAC stage but not the DSP stage, if you want to listen to a room corrected analog signal of e.g. a turntable, you are no longer listening via "PureDirect".
Keep in mind, I was talking about digital input only.


Because Audio folks are paranoid and many detest any processing whatsoever.
Also: it does make sense to provide it when you work with analog paths and want to make it clear to the user that you can bypass the built in DSP if you choose to do so.

So yes, they will implement a "pure direct" button, whether it actually does result in a cleaner signal path for digital signals or not.
Not sure if it's worth continuing this DSP 'argument'. Logic and reality do not always meet and simple circumstantial 'evidence' (on both sides) isn't going anywhere either. I do not have any concrete data/measurements about DSP circuits and no mood to dig any. You do not seem to have any either.

If you want to dig some DSP data/measurements, you're highly welcome.
If you want to believe that DSP (digital) circuits are 'pure', you're also welcome.
And if you want to entertain that >5dB SINAD bet and wait for ASR measurements/data, you're welcome too.
 

3dbinCanada

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2020
Messages
408
Likes
242
Not sure if it's worth continuing this DSP 'argument'. Logic and reality do not always meet and simple circumstantial 'evidence' (on both sides) isn't going anywhere either. I do not have any concrete data/measurements about DSP circuits and no mood to dig any. You do not seem to have any either.

If you want to dig some DSP data/measurements, you're highly welcome.
If you want to believe that DSP (digital) circuits are 'pure', you're also welcome.
And if you want to entertain that >5dB SINAD bet and wait for ASR measurements/data, you're welcome too.

So what you are saying is that you have no evidence to support your incorrect assertions and as a result you simply want to dismiss any evidence that contradicts your assertions?
 

Bear123

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Nov 27, 2019
Messages
796
Likes
1,370
Pure Direct = the button for people that want to degrade sound quality by turning off subs and room correction cuz audiophile.
 

Aerith Gainsborough

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
May 4, 2020
Messages
853
Likes
1,280
If you want to dig some DSP data/measurements, you're highly welcome.
It probably does not mean much, but this is the only measurement I can provide. I'm sure the absolute values need a grain of salt but I was interested in the changes between measurements:
DSP vs straight.png

Input HDMI, output via headphone out -> soundcard.
My AVR does not have a pure direct setting, so I have no way of knowing whether the signal always passes through the DSP stage or not. I assume it does, it just does not get altered. Soundcard measurement is there to show that the ADC was not the limiting factor.

At least I can say that different EQ settings and DSP presets (2.0 -> 5.1 faker preset and tone controls randomly set) don't seem to make a dent in the measurements.

Harmonics did not change at all and no new ones popped up.

Clip.png


Pure Direct = the button for people that want to degrade sound quality by turning off subs and room correction cuz audiophile.
Or you are like me and do the DSP room correction at the source (in my case a DAW with Dirac), in which case "pure direct" (straight) is the only relevant setting.

So yeah, these buttons do have practical uses.
 
Last edited:

3dbinCanada

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2020
Messages
408
Likes
242
Pure Direct = the button for people that want to degrade sound quality by turning off subs and room correction cuz audiophile.

I already gave my reason cuz its not about audiophile. Thanks for chiming in ;)
 

Bear123

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Nov 27, 2019
Messages
796
Likes
1,370
I already gave my reason cuz its not about audiophile. Thanks for chiming in ;)
Yes, you said you like to listen to your towers without subs or room correction. This degrades sound quality(assuming good subs and proper setup). The audiophile world is full of beliefs and actions that do not support the best sound quality or highest fidelity even though that is supposedly the goal. To be more clear, this is what I meant when I said "cuz audiophile".
 

3dbinCanada

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2020
Messages
408
Likes
242
Yes, you said you like to listen to your towers without subs or room correction. This degrades sound quality(assuming good subs and proper setup). The audiophile world is full of beliefs and actions that do not support the best sound quality or highest fidelity even though that is supposedly the goal. To be more clear, this is what I meant when I said "cuz audiophile".

No worries. I dont consider it a down grade at all as I really like the sound of the towers without the correction. I also configured to play with sub setting the towers to small but without room correction for classical music containing lots of pipe organ as my towers cant reach that depth. For movies, I do use room correction and sub.
 

Frank Dernie

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 24, 2016
Messages
6,445
Likes
15,781
Location
Oxfordshire
No worries. I dont consider it a down grade at all as I really like the sound of the towers without the correction. I also configured to play with sub setting the towers to small but without room correction for classical music containing lots of pipe organ as my towers cant reach that depth. For movies, I do use room correction and sub.
That tends to be my procedure too.
My room was set up many years before room compensation from the electronics was available.
The speakers were carefully positioned so they did not excite the main room modes strongly, analogous to choosing where to pluck the string effects timbre, so whilst they are there they are not particularly big peaks (Amir's chosen FR in his Audyssey review is more overblown in the bass than my uncorrected speakers, which is fun on pop music and films but I don't like it at all on orchestral music) I am still messing with the in room FR in Audyssey but so far haven't come up with one which sounds natural on acoustic music.
So like you I listen to music straight and films/TV with Audyssey manipulation.
I am fairly sure I can get Audyssey to sound accurate on music but it isn't there yet.
I plan to do another set of measurements rather than just play with the settings in the app but, since I am enjoying music anyway haven't been pushed to do measurements which I find a monumental pita, which I am only prepared to subject myself to if my musical enjoyment is being influenced. I probably need better centre and surrounds to get there.
I have still to hear a system I prefer tom mine, set up as it is in my room.
 

Aerith Gainsborough

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
May 4, 2020
Messages
853
Likes
1,280
That tends to be my procedure too.
My room was set up many years before room compensation from the electronics was available.
The speakers were carefully positioned so they did not excite the main room modes strongly
Hmm. Maybe you have a good room and you are used to modes. My friend does not mind them either, I find them annoying when listening to his system, despite liking the system in general. He does not like Dirac because Dirac tends to kill a lot of the reverberation too and makes things sound dry/small. He has a rather sparsely furnished room, so that emphasizes the effect. It literally sounded like taking the artist out of the hall and putting him into a tiny studio.

For my system, whenever an electric guitar would "walk" over C2 (65Hz) it would sound like this: Note -> Note -> NOTE -> Note. Same happened whenever I reached for the C2 on my Piano.
Pretty obvious if you are used to listen to headphones for years.

For people like me, that can basically plant the speakers in one spot, if it doesn't work -> tough luck, DSP room correction is a blessing.
But I can understand both sides of the coin, since it comes down to personal taste. Accuracy does not help when the resulting sound is not pleasant to the listener.
 

Frank Dernie

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 24, 2016
Messages
6,445
Likes
15,781
Location
Oxfordshire
Hmm. Maybe you have a good room and you are used to modes. My friend does not mind them either, I find them annoying when listening to his system, despite liking the system in general. He does not like Dirac because Dirac tends to kill a lot of the reverberation too and makes things sound dry/small. He has a rather sparsely furnished room, so that emphasizes the effect. It literally sounded like taking the artist out of the hall and putting him into a tiny studio.

For my system, whenever an electric guitar would "walk" over C2 (65Hz) it would sound like this: Note -> Note -> NOTE -> Note. Same happened whenever I reached for the C2 on my Piano.
Pretty obvious if you are used to listen to headphones for years.

For people like me, that can basically plant the speakers in one spot, if it doesn't work -> tough luck, DSP room correction is a blessing.
But I can understand both sides of the coin, since it comes down to personal taste. Accuracy does not help when the resulting sound is not pleasant to the listener.
Definitely.
Room compensation is a boon to anybody not able to position their speakers optimally.
For the first 30 or 40 years as an enthusiast speaker positioning was the only way to minimise the excitation of room modes, so I have been doing it for a long time. It really requires extensive measuring to get right and the speakers end up where they need to be, not necessarily where you would prefer them!
 

lashto

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 8, 2019
Messages
1,045
Likes
535
It probably does not mean much, but this is the only measurement I can provide. I'm sure the absolute values need a grain of salt but I was interested in the changes between measurements:
View attachment 76065
Input HDMI, output via headphone out -> soundcard.
My AVR does not have a pure direct setting, so I have no way of knowing whether the signal always passes through the DSP stage or not. I assume it does, it just does not get altered. Soundcard measurement is there to show that the ADC was not the limiting factor.

At least I can say that different EQ settings and DSP presets (2.0 -> 5.1 faker preset and tone controls randomly set) don't seem to make a dent in the measurements.

Harmonics did not change at all and no new ones popped up.

View attachment 76066


Or you are like me and do the DSP room correction at the source (in my case a DAW with Dirac), in which case "pure direct" (straight) is the only relevant setting.

So yeah, these buttons do have practical uses.
many Thanks for taking the effort with those measurements. Unfortunately, it looks like nothing was clarified. The two "DSP-on" and "Straight" measurements are virtually identical, one can only see the kind of 'variation' expected when measuring the same thing twice. No idea what "straight" means on a Yamaha AVR, the last time I had one was >10years ago.
Not sure how/what to measure on that Yamaha, just some thoughts:
  • do not measure the HP out, that is probably always DSPed (the signal might be any number of channels but the HP-out must be stereo).
  • The DAC pre-outs should be a better choice. Or the speaker outs (just be careful not to fry your soundcard!)
  • if your AVR has a "pure direct" path for analog inputs, measure that against the (default?) DSP-on. Yes, you will get ADC effects but at least you might see a difference (and confirm that your AVR doesn't always use DSP).

And btw, that soundcard measures so much better than the AVR. So much about AVR "sound quality".
And btw2, you seem to be happy with the Dolby decoding & roomcorrection done 'externally' on the PC and do not seem to have WAF/usability concerns. So, why do you use an AVR?!
 

3dbinCanada

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2020
Messages
408
Likes
242
Straight mode on a Yamaha is different than Pure Direct and it appears consistent based on all 4 of my models and the owners manual for the RX-V377 which is Yamaha's entry level AVR and can be had for under $300. Straight modes turns off all of the DSP sound affect modes such as hall, stadium, sports etc. and it decodes a 1 for 1 channel input to output. What that means is if the input is 2 channels, the output is 2 chanels, 3 channels in gives 3 channels out. Straight does not disable room eq which in this case is YPAO.

Lashto, unless your hearing is equivalent to that of a bat, you will NOT be able to detect the noise floor on that AVR.
 
Last edited:

Aerith Gainsborough

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
May 4, 2020
Messages
853
Likes
1,280
  • do not measure the HP out, that is probably always DSPed (the signal might be any number of channels but the HP-out must be stereo).
  • The DAC pre-outs should be a better choice. Or the speaker outs (just be careful not to fry your soundcard!)
  • if your AVR has a "pure direct" path for analog inputs, measure that against the (default?) DSP-on. Yes, you will get ADC effects but at least you might see a difference (and confirm that your AVR doesn't always use DSP).
Being the smallest in the series, I'm afraid I do not have either: a pure direct setting or pre-outs.
So all I can do is trying different DSP settings and see if that changes things (it does not, as expected) but s/o else needs to try the other stuff.

Yop, the ADC in my soundcard is better. The DAC is even better but guess what: I can't hear a lick of difference in actual use even when knowing the measured difference. Believe me I've tried. :D

I use an AVR simply because it is convenient, dealing with HDMI/BluRay/Multichannel. Also, my soundcard cannot drive passive speakers. :p
Headphone listening is done on the soundcard with the exception for BD playback.
 

lashto

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 8, 2019
Messages
1,045
Likes
535
Harmon's work started off with Dr Floyd Toole
...
I have posted a question about speaker measurements and asked him if two speakers from different manufacturers measured identically in the same room, would they sound the same?
His answer was yes.
Hmm, was it though?!
Looks like in the meantime your guru did change his opinion completely: two speakers can measure "virtually identical" and sound different. In his own, very well documented words.

The Times They Are A-changing...
 
Last edited:

lashto

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 8, 2019
Messages
1,045
Likes
535
Being the smallest in the series, I'm afraid I do not have either: a pure direct setting or pre-outs.
So all I can do is trying different DSP settings and see if that changes things (it does not, as expected) but s/o else needs to try the other stuff.

Yop, the ADC in my soundcard is better. The DAC is even better but guess what: I can't hear a lick of difference in actual use even when knowing the measured difference. Believe me I've tried. :D

I use an AVR simply because it is convenient, dealing with HDMI/BluRay/Multichannel. Also, my soundcard cannot drive passive speakers. :p
Headphone listening is done on the soundcard with the exception for BD playback.
From your post and @3dbinCanada's, it looks like everything goes through the DSP circuit in your AVR. With "straight" disabling some DSP features but that is just disabling/enabling extra math not the whole circuit. And you probably cannot do DSP on/off tests on that AVR. Thanks again for trying though.

As about hearing any of those AVR vs soundcard diffs, very slim chances indeed. The difference in noise floor at 120 vs 130 DB is probably inaudible for @3dbinCanada's bats too :). I would concentrate on the diffs in low level harmonics, e.g. those power harmonics at 50Hz and multiples. Which are much higher for the AVR and quite counterintuitive. "Common knowledge" would say that a fully-built-for-audio device like the AVR would have very little of that and a soundcard using 'dirty' PC power would have a lot. Your measurements show the exact opposite. Another great 'win' for AVRs.
However, D in the bass range is least audible. By far. Might just be a waste of time & music neurons.

I would try a separates setup (multichannel DAC + Amp) if I were you. With external Dolby decoding & roomcorrection you are halfway there. But then, noone can guarantee that you'll be happier with those separates.
 

Aerith Gainsborough

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
May 4, 2020
Messages
853
Likes
1,280
There is no way I can hear the harmonics.

Ambient noise in my room is about 42dB (C). My peak level on transients at my normal listening volume is 78dB (Z), 88dB (Z) when I crank it for a few minutes.
A harmonic @ -80dB would be at -2dB at my normal listening volume and at +8dB when I crank it. I can't listen that deeply into the noise floor against the music that is playing on top of it. No way.

I might be able to hear it with headphones but then again, 95% of all headphone listening is only done via the soundcard. Basically I only use cans with he AVR when I watch 4K BD movies and a lil' 50Hz low level harmonic is ... well... nothing against a movies' ridiculous LFE track.

I thought about replacing my EoL soundcard with an ADI-2 DAC and pairing that with a Hypex amp for music listening but, frankly, after doing the math, I just don't see a practical benefit over what I have, given my use case. So for as long as Microsoft does not break my soundcards driver with further needless tinkering on the audio side, I'll continue using it.
 

lashto

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 8, 2019
Messages
1,045
Likes
535
There is no way I can hear the harmonics.

Ambient noise in my room is about 42dB (C). My peak level on transients at my normal listening volume is 78dB (Z), 88dB (Z) when I crank it for a few minutes.
A harmonic @ -80dB would be at -2dB at my normal listening volume and at +8dB when I crank it. I can't listen that deeply into the noise floor against the music that is playing on top of it. No way.

I might be able to hear it with headphones but then again, 95% of all headphone listening is only done via the soundcard. Basically I only use cans with he AVR when I watch 4K BD movies and a lil' 50Hz low level harmonic is ... well... nothing against a movies' ridiculous LFE track.

I thought about replacing my EoL soundcard with an ADI-2 DAC and pairing that with a Hypex amp for music listening but, frankly, after doing the math, I just don't see a practical benefit over what I have, given my use case. So for as long as Microsoft does not break my soundcards driver with further needless tinkering on the audio side, I'll continue using it.

You keep using that HD & room noise 'thing'. Those two aren't (much) related. A tube amp will sound exactly same as HD warm, irrespective of your ambient noise. But anyway, in this case the chances to hear 50Hz harmonics at -80dB are close to zero, no matter what volume/HPs/etc. I wouldn't try that either.

If it's just about HPs, how about a JDS Atom amp + soundcard ?! Measures wow and costs about $100. Or their dac+amp. Could be an audible gain for little money. A good Hypex + ADI will cost €2000+, there should be many better ways to spend that kind of money :)
 
Top Bottom