Why don’t ASR members laud Neumann speakers?

[Vintage57]

Hi-jack help‍

 

[flowjm]

I recently bought a pair of secondhand KH310's, mainly on the strength of the Sound on Sound review. I only use them for domestic listening and don't consider myself to have magic ears or anything, but I find them to very clear and bring out a lot of detail. I also find the EQ controls on the rear of the unit to be very useful in getting rid of some of the "boominess" that's apparent in my room.

 

[Totoro]

Re: Genelec - yes, you can adjust the target - I wonder how many people do that. Maybe just the folks on this forum ;-)

-2 dB @ 20 kHz... Well, don't shoot me, I am talking about -10 dB down at 20 kHz folks. A bit of reading here.

@Ilkless I agree with your 2nd paragraph, but not your first. I have measured in-room Revel 208, Revel Salon2 and JBL M2 and confirm the nicely tilted response to about -10 dB at 20 kHz (ref 20 Hz). Not so with a couple of Neumann's I have measured and can confirm -2 dB at 20 kHz as per article you linked. The Revel 208 measured in-room response -10 dB @ 20 kHz also confirmed by Sean Olive along with his study on room correction products in the link above.

I am not saying one size fits all and it is not always a tilt exactly from 20 Hz to -10 dB at 20 kHz. As stated here, unless one is using the spinorama method as embodied in the ANSI/CEA 2034-A Standard Method of Measurement for In-Home loudspeakers, then I suspect that the speaker designer/manufacture is doing it wrong.

PS the D&D 8c also tilts 20Hz to -10 dB at 20 kHz "out of the

Because we get huge backhanders ( amir dose not need the money but my bar bill don't pay itself).

Yeah I realize it sounds like that’s what.i meant, it’s not though, I just expressed myself badly. I really just meant I thought you two can be a bit lenient at times, sorry I came across so badly.

 

[Vintage57]

I recently bought a pair of secondhand KH310's, mainly on the strength of the Sound on Sound review. I only use them for domestic listening and don't consider myself to have magic ears or anything, but I find them to very clear and bring out a lot of detail. I also find the EQ controls on the rear of the unit to be very useful in getting rid of some of the "boominess" that's apparent in my room.

I’m doing much the same in buying without the opportunity to audition and on the strength of reviews and podcasts. I’m buying used/demo so that I don’t have huge exposure on the down side.

 

[Cortes]

I have 2 x KH80 with 1 x KH805. They are very good in my small room. I don't know if it's the directivity or the linear phase crossover but the stereo image is very good.

Good luck getting the DSP app to work, it steadfastly refuses to work with my setup, and Neumann have no answer. It's a real shame as it's a major selling feature of the KH80s.

yes, every time I feel attracted to the KH80 that's the reason I finally depart from it. I sold all my passive stuff to rebuild a new system, considering all the options, but at the end only Genelec fulfills all the requirements.

 

[Cortes]

Many studio monitors have a high frequency shelf switch which may provide a downward sloping response. It's -2db on the JBL LSR's and my 305's measure with a downward in room response.

And good EQ plugins for foobar, as fabfilter, that can make the same and more. Really, this descencing frequency curve argument is too high order (=irrelevant) to me.

 

[Cortes]

Other way round I believe domestic audio is far larger.
Previously ‘pro’ brands tend to migrate into domestic, ATC exhibit at Hi-End venues far more now than they did.
Keith

That might explain we I find tons of second hand speakers of audiophile brands on the internet, and there are really few KH, Genelec, ADAM,etc. Probably the market for the pro speakers is much smaller.

 

[Cortes]

About Genelec, they just released this teaser...

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1164947155619991552

ufff let's hope is something good!. I've observed reduction in prices on some dealers on the 8320/8330/8340. maybe is related.

 

[jhaider]

Good luck getting the DSP app to work, it steadfastly refuses to work with my setup, and Neumann have no answer. It's a real shame as it's a major selling feature of the KH80s.

Mine found the speakers and updated the firmware immediately. That said, there are some disappointments with the app. First, there’s no way to import your measurements that I could see. Second, you can’t zoom in to focus on <500Hz.

It seems KH750 is actually the magic component. If you have one of those, you can use the app with other Neumann speakers as well.

I listened briefly to them connected to an Apogee Duet interface, but quickly realized that I need the subs to be satisfied. Also I hate the extra wires on my desk. I think I’m going to use with a miniDSP 2x4DL fed optically by an AirPort Express. For that I need to make or buy RCA to XLR cables first.

 

[Vintage57]

From Fidelity-magazin.de

https://www.fidelity-magazin.de/2015/12/16/neumann-kh-420-messungen/

A manufacturer using Klippel technology.

My iPad translated it for me with Google translate

 

[Juhazi]

That might explain we I find tons of second hand speakers of audiophile brands on the internet, and there are really few KH, Genelec, ADAM,etc. Probably the market for the pro speakers is much smaller.

I dont think that is is the number of products. Pro/installation spekers are bought for a purpose, not just for the fun of buying new "better" stuff over and over again.

 

[Julf]

I dont think that is is the number of products. Pro/installation spekers are bought for a purpose, not just for the fun of buying new "better" stuff over and over again.

"Ooh, look, something new and shiny!"

 

[JJB70]

Quite a lot of AV gear seems to be let down by poor app design and poor connectivity (well, the stuff intended to use app control). For some reason it seems quite common to find superbly designed physical components which are saddled with a half baked app.

 

[BillG]

For some reason it seems quite common to find superbly designed physical components which are saddled with a half baked app.

Yeah, DTS Play-Fi is a perfect example of this. I don't know what they were thinking, because it certainly doesn't follow the contemporary design standards on Android:

 

[Nango]

Belongs to Sennheiser Group.

 

[Ron Texas]

I would rather not have to mess with an app because it could become unsupported.

 

[Vintage57]

From Fidelity-magazin.de

https://www.fidelity-magazin.de/2015/12/16/neumann-kh-420-messungen/

A manufacturers using Klippel technology.

My iPad translated it for me with Google translate

A link to the same magazines measurements for other speakers. You may be surprised or not.

The Neumann KH 420 does more than hold its own in the measurement arena.

https://www.fidelity-magazin.de/category/equipment/lautsprecher/lautsprecher-messungen/

 

[jhaider]

@jhaider wow man. I am indeed coming at it from an in-room measurement perspective, as a consumer and sometimes reviewer of loudspeakers. But there is a reason I bring it up. The ANSI/CEA 2034-A I referenced is a measurement system and a predictor of the in-room fr response of what a neutral speaker sounds like in a typical living room. It's a transfer function.

Harman have performed numerous studies on subjective listening and objective measurements correlating listener preference to both anechoic spins and in-room measurements. Olive has studies on headphones, that directly correlate with loudspeakers with the same tilted in-room or on-ear (translated to headphone) measurement. There is a specific in-room measured response from a variety of Harman products that matches the research results.

What I am saying is unless the speaker designer/manufacturer is using ANSI/CEA 2034-A Standard Method of Measurement for In-Home loudspeakers, then all bets are off, as the traditional methods of designing a speaker in an anechoic chamber using a single on axis measurement or limited number of off axis measurements, (spinorama uses +70) is not a good predictor of how it will sound in a "typical" living room environment (too bright according to Harmans research and my ears).

If you're going to talk down to everyone, the underlying commentary should at least make some sense. Here, you seem to be arguing a phantom position based on a misunderstanding of the measurements presented.

I used your closest D&D measurement to the anechoic/quasi-anechoic standard used by everybody else. One foot is too close to be that useful, but you do not appear to take standard measurements in your reviews for some reason. Measurements in your room at your preferred seat are no standard. The only use of any in-room speaker measurements is to set room correction, i.e. EQ up to the transition region. You don't even identify your measurements as being the spatial averages required for such room correction.

Let's strip away your "2034" jargon and and go back to first principles. Preference testing (NRC/Harman publications, endorsed by KEF et al.) has shown that listeners generally prefer speakers with:

1) flat and smooth anechoic frequency response on-axis (and listening window spatial average)
2) smooth off-axis anechoic frequency response
3) extended bass

Any "predictions of in-room response" are made using the anechoic (or quasi-anechoic, for those of us who don't have access to chambers and thus cannot take full-range anechoic measurements) measurements.

Given that, here are measurements of two loudspeakers taken in the same anechoic chamber by the same audio professional using the same methods. One was presumptively designed "using ANSI/CEA 2034-A Standard Method of Measurement for In-Home loudspeakers." Which one is it, and how can you tell?

(The point, if it wasn't clear: the other one is from Neumann.)

 

[LTig]

[..]Given that, here are measurements of two loudspeakers taken in the same anechoic chamber by the same audio professional using the same methods. One was presumptively designed "using ANSI/CEA 2034-A Standard Method of Measurement for In-Home loudspeakers." Which one is it, and how can you tell?

View attachment 31983View attachment 31984View attachment 31985

(The point, if it wasn't clear: the other one is from Neumann.)

Speaker A must be Neumann (KH80 DSP). They would never sell a speaker with a deep dip in FR like speaker B. Also speaker B has a typical Hifi-bump in the mid bass.

 

[Ilkless]

Speaker A must be Neumann (KH80 DSP). They would never sell a speaker with a deep dip in FR like speaker B. Also speaker B has a typical Hifi-bump in the mid bass.

Speaker B is the JBL LSR705p. It has a 800Hz cancellation notch due to interference between port output and driver output.