• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Why don’t ASR members laud Neumann speakers?

Pio2001

Senior Member
Joined
May 15, 2018
Messages
317
Likes
507
Location
Neuville-sur-Saône, France
I re-adjusted the balance, delays, and xo between my desk office speakers (fronts and surrounds) and performed some measurements with REW.

Hi ernestcarl,
I see that you get as much H3 harmonic distortion with your JBL 305 as I.

Can you hear the distortion while the test signal is playing ?
 

ernestcarl

Major Contributor
Joined
Sep 4, 2019
Messages
3,106
Likes
2,313
Location
Canada
Hi ernestcarl,
I see that you get as much H3 harmonic distortion with your JBL 305 as I.

Can you hear the distortion while the test signal is playing ?

I have not noticed/paid attention enough as they are at the back of my LP about a meter further away than the Neumann’s. I’m not really concerned too much with the distortion numbers. It’s more of the overall difference in timbre between the cheaper LSRs and the KH120 that bothers me sometimes. I have tried specifically shelving the treble even further down to -3dB starting at 2kHz and that seems to make it less noticeable; but, if playing music with the LSR305s alone (and not using them as surrounds) I would not apply any more shelving to it at all. It makes them sound too dull.

Well, I’ve tried raising the mids a while back to bring vocals much more forward, but I remember them sounding rather harsh as a result. Maybe harmonic distortion makes it harder to perform such type of peaking EQ without detrimental effects to the sound? I don’t know...

I did learn that the ringing that one hears upon tapping the cabinet comes from the circuit/amp board itself. It’s not the metal back plate or driver. Couldn’t really fix it.
 

LTig

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 27, 2019
Messages
5,760
Likes
9,442
Location
Europe
Yeah I was looking at B-Stock 310's for about 3400 per pair. Mostly just trying to determine if the Neumann DSP is a special sauce that I can't live with out or if my current dsp solution would be adequate.
AFAIK the KH310 has no DSP.
 

ernestcarl

Major Contributor
Joined
Sep 4, 2019
Messages
3,106
Likes
2,313
Location
Canada
I was playing around with the new beta version of REW today and did just a few more modifications/improvements. I don't know if this dark mode is new to this version, but it really looks great! :cool:

Initially, I've always wondered as to why I prefered to have the treble completely flat (in relation to the entire FR) instead of applying a bit of a curve contouring/shelving per standard recommendation for my KH120 monitors. And I think it must be because my room is just too damned dead. You see I have these thick foam wedges which I've brought along with me as remnants from our previous house. I actually put it into storage for about half-a-year or so, I think -- then decided to recycle it rather than throw it into the garbage. I could have just as easily made some better diy absorbers myself, but why waste stuff, eh?

I took some RT60 measurements and here are the results:

RT60 (Topt) 150Hz - 10kHz.jpg


RT60 (Topt) 150Hz - 10kHz BARS.jpg


My guess is this is the reason why turning the surrounds ON improves the sense of "envelopment" and "space" sooo much. It adds more liveliness to the plain old stereo mix inside my already over-dead room.

Also, since I'm using the surrounds quite a lot more now anyhows, I might as well try to get the treble balance right -- this has been bothering me anyway. Just a itty-bit more EQ and shelving in that specific region finally got me this:

[FL+FR+SL+SR] EQ & Shelving to Improve Treble Matching.jpg



() FL+FR+SL+SR  SPLs 10 dB FR slope 3 one third octave, 24Hz -3dB.jpg


So far my initial listening tests have been positive. And now... you improved the treble balance so why not the bass? Well, honestly, I really didn't want to do too much here so just three things were changed: boosted the bass volume by 4dB & the high pass from 20 to 34 Hz 26Hz, as well as added a +4 dB peak filter at 115 Hz. Hmmn, but why increase the high pass filter?

Firstly (and likely an inconsequential/irrelevant reason), I just liked how it flattened out the distortion bump at the sub bass region. Secondly (and more importantly), after listening to a variety of bass heavy tracks, it does sound more balanced to me this way with the new added 10 dB slope from bass to treble -- whereas previously it was way overly flat. Of course, I can always disable this high pass filter when watching more modern movies with hard hitting bass notes -- that is, if I can remember to do so.

(FR) KH120 + SUB Noise Floor & THD, 26Hz High Pass Filter.jpg


PHASE 2.2ms DELAY (FL) KH120 + SUB, 26Hz High Pass Filter.jpg


Added -4 dB at 2kHz high shelf and -2 dB peak at 15kHz for the LSR305s:

(SL) LSR305 + SUB THD, 26Hz High Pass Filter.jpg


I'm not sure how a waterfall graph should be read or interpreted exactly, but what the heck -- it looks pretty with the black backgroud and rainbow colors o_O

WATERFALL (FL) KH120 + SUB 85 dB.jpg


WATERFALL (SL) LSR305 + SUB 85 dB.jpg


WATERFALL (FR) KH120 + SUB, 26Hz High Pass Filter.jpg


WATERFALL (SR) LSR305 + SUB, 26Hz High Pass Filter.jpg


SPECTOGRAM (FL) KH120 + SUB, 26Hz High Pass Filter.jpg


*I ultimately decided to extended the high pass from 34 to 26Hz instead. This at least lets me feel more of the rumble in some tracks without it feeling too uncomfortable.

BTW, I mentioned before that I have a sit-stand desk... So to be clear, all measurements here are in the "standing"/high position. Although I do also use a high chair so there is not so much need to switch to the "sitting"/low position all the time. The measurements for the low position I will not bother to include here but they're pretty similar with everything except for the nulls in the bass region going quite a bit deeper.


Here's my sit/stand desk station that looks more like a dump than it normally is :

DESK DUMP YARD.jpeg


I was busy playing with REW so looks aren't at important!
 

Attachments

  • (FR) KH120 + SUB 85 dB Noise Floor & THD.jpg
    (FR) KH120 + SUB 85 dB Noise Floor & THD.jpg
    239.7 KB · Views: 213
  • PHASE 2.2ms DELAY (FL) KH120 + SUB 85 dB.jpg
    PHASE 2.2ms DELAY (FL) KH120 + SUB 85 dB.jpg
    294 KB · Views: 194
  • (SL) LSR305 + SUB THD.jpg
    (SL) LSR305 + SUB THD.jpg
    338.3 KB · Views: 189
  • () FL+FR+SL+SR  SPLs 10 dB FR slope 2 one third octave.jpg
    () FL+FR+SL+SR SPLs 10 dB FR slope 2 one third octave.jpg
    243.3 KB · Views: 167
  • WATERFALL (FR) KH120 + SUB, 26Hz High Pass Filter.jpg
    WATERFALL (FR) KH120 + SUB, 26Hz High Pass Filter.jpg
    603.9 KB · Views: 120
Last edited:

jhaider

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 5, 2016
Messages
2,822
Likes
4,514
I finally had a chance to set up my Neumann KH 80 DSPs on my desktop yesterday. Neumann ensured my third replacement was from a different batch from the two that had erratic standby behavior by sending one literally made in a different country. The ones I bought and the first warranty replacement were labeled made in Ireland. The second warranty replacement is labeled made in the Czech Republic.

Signal chain is MacBook Pro -[USB]-> miniDSP DDRC-24, with RCA->XLR cables wired per the Hypex diagram. They sit on mounts made from Ergotron monitor mount parts I bought on eBay and a PA speaker pole mount bracket. Total cost for both mounts was under $100. The central insight here is Ergotron's mounts use 35mm poles, so they are compatible with PA speaker accessories. Other monitor mounts may also use 35mm poles. The speaker platform is a plastic pole mount adapter. These stands are space efficient (clamped to desktop) and relatively clean looking (cable management in arm but not in pole). They are also easily, albeit not toollessly, adjustable for height and angle.

IMG_1723.jpeg


The KH80s are augmented with a pair of subs: Dayton RSS265HF drivers in about 0.5 cu ft/18L cabinets from obsolete Velodyne subs, powered by an old D-Sonic amp (Icepower 500ASP per driver). Preliminary crossover is 100Hz, 5th order (30dB/octave). Andrew Jones makes a compelling-to-me argument that sat-sub crossovers should be odd-order so that they sum in phase quadrature for flat power response, rather than even-order for flat on-axis summation. "On axis" has no meaning in the steady state. I have not run Dirac Live yet, and sat/sub integration is not quite dialled in. A song I use as a quick check for upper bass overhang is Radiohead's "How to Disappear Completely," and this setup does not yet pass. There's still some tubbiness.

In the upper bass, midrange, and treble there were no revelatory sonic differences for me compared to the speakers they replaced, but it was instantly clear that KH80 are superb speakers. I consider this lack of massive difference from my old desk speakers (my design, using an 8" KEF Q900 coax in a closed box) a positive. The major thing wrong with the old speakers is bulk. They are about 11.5" wide, 15" tall, and 9.5" deep. They are large enough to dominate the desk even though their width is visually reduced by aiming them to cross axes at the front edge of the desk. Sonically I'm proud of them. Here is their Spinorama.

Q900 coax desktop speaker listening window, power, DI.png


I will be enjoying these for a while. Once I feel like I have a good handle on them I will compare them to JBL 705i. I recently picked up a BSS BLU-USB so I can avoid an extra AD-DA loop and go BLU-USB -> network cable -> BSS BLU-50 DSP. What color do you think the BLU-USB is? :facepalm:
 

ReaderZ

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Apr 14, 2020
Messages
618
Likes
414
I use the KH120 with a Rythmik F12 sub and minidsp... Cost, I think, should be under 3.5k

Some people have been having problems with KH80 dsp (mainly the app)... IMO, unless you want to use multiple speakers/subs for a surround system, you’re probably better with the 120 and using minidsp for your XO and EQ. Seems to me the simpler KH120 would be more robust as well with less complex internal components to possibly break. The KH310 comes in a nicer sealed cabinet design, but would be clearly over budget.

*oh, and I think KH80 DSP would probably make more sense if you are going to pair it specifically with the neumann KH750 DSP.


I think 750dsp is best for 120, 80 already have DPS inside, so no need for additional dps, and while 310 and 420 could use the dps, you may not need a sub since they already goes to 35hz(30 for 420?)
 

LTig

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 27, 2019
Messages
5,760
Likes
9,442
Location
Europe
I think 750dsp is best for 120, 80 already have DPS inside, so no need for additional dps, and while 310 and 420 could use the dps, you may not need a sub since they already goes to 35hz(30 for 420?)
26 Hz for KH420.
 

DJBonoBobo

Major Contributor
Joined
Jan 21, 2020
Messages
1,360
Likes
2,851
Location
any germ
I think 750dsp is best for 120, 80 already have DPS inside, so no need for additional dps, and while 310 and 420 could use the dps, you may not need a sub since they already goes to 35hz(30 for 420?)

If you use the 750DSP with the KH80 the sub can manage crossover and room eq. If you combine KH80 with a different sub you will need an additional dsp for the sub if i am not mistaken, because the DSP inside the KH80 can only manage the KH80. So the 750DSP is evenly useful for 80 and 120. I combine it with the 310, but mainly because of positioning and therefore better bass response between 70 and 100 Hz. I don´t care much about bass extension. For 420 the main reason not to use the 750DSP is that the 750 is quite small and it would limit the system´s max SPL.
 
OP
Vintage57

Vintage57

Senior Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 2, 2018
Messages
412
Likes
595
Location
Ontario, Canada
Yeah, with 310 some may still want sub, I think with 420 the need for sub just isn't there for most people.

I have the KH420’s and bought the KH805’s to use with them and they are overkill. Fun on soundtracks however, flat to 18Hz
 

ReaderZ

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Apr 14, 2020
Messages
618
Likes
414
I have the KH420’s and bought the KH805’s to use with them and they are overkill. Fun on soundtracks however, flat to 18Hz

I was temped by the 420, but it's way beyond my budget... Also not near field, so likely have to get a Genelec 8351B if I have that kind of money. Still 310 fits my budget and needs, so hope it works out for me.
 

Music1969

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 19, 2018
Messages
4,636
Likes
2,809
. That's the fundamental issue with Genelec's GLM software - eq steady state response to flat. I am not singling out Genelec either as most pro monitors have the same issue. Contrast that with the D&D 8c that has the downward tilt "out of the box"...

Hi @mitchco

Quoting an old post here but @amirm 's measurements of the Genelec 8341A contrast your comment about them being too flat (in a room?)

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...nelec-8341a-sam™-studio-monitor-review.11652/

1590669614563.png
 

QMuse

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 20, 2020
Messages
3,124
Likes
2,785

Music1969

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 19, 2018
Messages
4,636
Likes
2,809
I fully agree with @mitchco - EQ-ing steady state in-room measurement to flat would cetrainly sound bright, as @amirm also commented at the bottom of that chart.

No worries. I thought @mitchco was referring to “out of the box” (without EQ).

Because in what I quoted he mentioned "Contrast that with the D&D 8c that has the downward tilt "out of the box"..."

I read that as comparing GLM AutoCal vs D&D 8C out of the box (no EQ).
But for apples to apples, both speakers 'out of the box' look very good.

And of course, with GLM one can manually adjust the target curve.
 
Last edited:

QMuse

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 20, 2020
Messages
3,124
Likes
2,785
No worries. I thought @mitchco was referring to “out of the box” (without EQ).

Because in what I quoted he mentioned "Contrast that with the D&D 8c that has the downward tilt "out of the box"..."

Every anechiocally flat speaker has downward tilt "out of the box" when measured in room.
 

Music1969

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 19, 2018
Messages
4,636
Likes
2,809
Every anechiocally flat speaker has downward tilt "out of the box" when measured in room.

Understood. As mentioned, it initially didn't make sense to me to compare GLM AutoCal vs 8C 'out of the box'.

It didn't seem apples to apples comparison when I read that.
 

m_g_s_g

Active Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 26, 2020
Messages
192
Likes
229
Location
Europe. Living in MD, USA.
They sit on mounts made from Ergotron monitor mount parts I bought on eBay and a PA speaker pole mount bracket.

Sorry for necroposting in an old thread, but since I very much liked your setup, I've shamelessly copied it for the KH80s I bought some days ago for desktop duties. I know you've moved them since to desk stands, but they fit well in my case (even if too close to the front wall/bookcases).

About this thread's title, I'm probably not a proper ASR member, since I'm loving my Neumanns. They have a very clean sound. For now I'm using a single old 8" non descript computer audio subwoofer with them. It definitely helps with the bass. I'll measure this setup with my UMIK and REW soon.

Screenshot_20201104-201158_X-plore.jpg
 
Last edited:

pozz

Слава Україні
Forum Donor
Editor
Joined
May 21, 2019
Messages
4,036
Likes
6,827
About this thread's title, I'm probably not a proper ASR member, since I'm loving my Neumanns.
I wouldn't worry about that. They are excellent speakers and many like them.
 

Habu

Active Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2019
Messages
219
Likes
533
Location
Montpellier (FRANCE)
Hello from France

In the past, Neumann (initially Klein + Hummel) had a speaker between KH 120 and KH 310, the O 200.

It would be great if Neumann could produce a KH 210 with improved specifications.

D85BE704-D5CE-4AA4-BD4D-86FB70BB7B61.jpeg
4154CC70-FC8C-4FE5-BA52-B1E5F2B77715.jpeg
0C6AA962-72EC-4A8C-8348-E6477697F435.jpeg
7A449C8A-B571-4EED-A7F7-A769AD840BF2.jpeg
5387FA24-646A-4B45-BCE1-14F0DE256705.jpeg
 

Attachments

  • o_200.pdf
    800.4 KB · Views: 107
Last edited:
Top Bottom