Why does so much High End audio not use balanced connections?

[RickNRoll]

I use audio connections for live music and would never use anything but balanced when I have the choice. Yet so much high end audio which is supposedly meticulous about sound quality makes do with RCA connections. They are fine for what they do, but I hear significant differences when compared to balanced. The noise levels are significantly different. Live audio does tend to have a lot more electrical noise and longer leads but it seems to be a no brainer for me.

 

[FeelinNoPain]

I guess it’s cutting costs and counting on most consumers not knowing any better. The highest quality gear does use balanced connections. There ain’t no RCA cables in my current system.

 

[levimax]

The reason are historical (unbalanced have been around forever for home Hi-Fi and are more or less standard) and semi-technical ( the added circuity for balanced is considered a less direct signal by some). The reality is for most home Hi-Fi unbalanced are fine although with modern systems hooked up with computers and Satellite or Cable TV as part of the system ground loops can be an issue with unbalanced. Comparing live music systems to home Hi-Fi is not a valid argument for balanced as it is a completely different environment. Outside of noise, which is much less of an issue with a home system, there is no other sound quality advantages to balanced. If starting out new, with the price of balanced equipment not much different than unbalanced, it makes sense to go balanced. If you have an existing unbalanced system that is working without noise issues nothing is going to be gained by converting to balanced.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

I use audio connections for live music and would never use anything but balanced when I have the choice. Yet so much high end audio which is supposedly meticulous about sound quality makes do with RCA connections. They are fine for what they do, but I hear significant differences when compared to balanced. The noise levels are significantly different. Live audio does tend to have a lot more electrical noise and longer leads but it seems to be a no brainer for me.

A school of thought developed that argued that there should be as few components in the audio path as possible and that negative feedback was bad. Balanced / differential working was seen as adding more components in the path and thereby "adding veils".

Thirty years ago, unlike the professional domain, very little domestic audio was available with balanced / differential capability, so it was difficult to build a chain of kit where the benefits were realised. Even today, if you want everything balanced, you are eliminating some choices of products.

 

[BeerBear]

I guess it’s cutting costs and counting on most consumers not knowing any better.

This is pretty much it.
It's true that in a typical home setup there probably won't be an audible advantage, but that's not a valid excuse when a piece of gear costs hundreds or even thousands of dollars, IMO.
Unbalanced taking less space is a legit argument too, but not for a typical full size hi-fi component, which has plenty of room to spare.

 

[TonyJZX]

i'm gonna put it out there that rca is fine for most domestic uses of reasonable length

like who is running distances that requires xlr?

as people have said here XLR and TRS is good when its good to be 100% sure there's no interference between one device and another but that would be about it

i do get that up to a certain point XLR makes sense in between key devices like preamp and power amp

 

[thecheapseats]

...A school of thought developed that argued that there should be as few components in the audio path as possible and that negative feedback was bad. Balanced / differential working was seen as adding more components in the path and thereby "adding veils"....

yep... that very point echoes in my ears from years ago - I'd asked a well known pro-audio gentleman - a tech (not a recording engineer) who worked at capitol records and other studios around town about re-tasking a -10 unbalanced solid-state 100wpc power amp to drive a multiple studio headphone cue system (I was perpetually broke - my first studio) - and he told me:

"operating level differences aside, an unbalanced device will often sound much better than a balanced device"...

he was right in that case (or I was just lucky) - that cue system sounded fantastic (still does)... many people commented on it...

 

[BeerBear]

i'm gonna put it out there that rca is fine for most domestic uses of reasonable length

like who is running distances that requires xlr?

It's not just a matter of length. Even a short interconnect cable could pick up some noise from an external PSU laying nearby. Not a typical scenario, but not unheard of either.

 

[notsodeadlizard]

I once made some money (for my hobby) by doing a high-end installation for a very wealthy man.
And because the intoxicatingly expensive and aesthetically incomparable turntable was placed near the chair in the listening room, and the amplifier with speakers at the other end of the room, because the owner so wants it, and the room for listening to music was somewhat larger than the living room in middle-class houses, the fully balanced player, cables and amplifier turned out to be exactly what was needed.
It's just a different world. Nobody needs micro- and mini-systems, as well as racks in this world.
And there is also a hidden trick with balanced inputs and outputs, because a balanced input, for example, can turn into a single-ended invisibly.
It's not fair
This is perfectly normal for professional equipment, but unacceptable for high-end.
If the high end is balanced, it must be balanced through and through.
It's very expensive and difficult, but that's exactly what high end means.
And this is good and right.

All this is not necessary for small non-special rooms, single ended is completely OK for a high quality in such conditions.

 

[thecheapseats]

as I understand it, there are several 'ways' to implement a balanced audio circuit - some of them have tradeoffs...

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

I would surmise that in the High-End Audio (HEA for short), Balanced inputs and outputs are commonplace in Solid State gears... less so with Tubes. Ii happens quite often in the HEA, XLR connectors are used, but the circuitry is not balanced... We must remember that in the HEA, people listen a lot with their eyes ... .
This said, a true balanced circuit is often not needed in the short runs that one encounters in the typical homes. Wireless is making a push in Home Audio too, so balanced may not be needed as much as before.
FWIW, my active speakers are balanced. I run them from a single-ended AVR. After more than 4 years, no issue. I have cables that are up to 30 feet. No noise pick-up...Nothing. I am crossing my fingers as AVR, even Pre/Pro with balanced outputs below $4000.oo are nonexistent. Some of the old Integra DHC 80 series Pre/Pro had these and were reasonably priced... I haven't seen any equivalent Pre/Pro from the competition... I actually bought an Integra; it was destroyed in a fall from a shelf, and I replaced it with a Denon AVR, I haven't looked back. I discovered by going to the Denon. how powerful Audyssey Room EQ can be... especially when coupled with the Audyssey MultEQ-X Windows software, that transform is into a serious DRC... A discussion for another day.

Peace.

 

[notsodeadlizard]

I once made some money (for my hobby) by doing a high-end installation for a very wealthy man.
And because the intoxicatingly expensive and aesthetically incomparable turntable was placed near the chair in the listening room, and the amplifier with speakers at the other end of the room, because the owner so wants it, and the room for listening to music was somewhat larger than the living room in middle-class houses, the fully balanced player, cables and amplifier turned out to be exactly what was needed.
It's just a different world. Nobody needs micro- and mini-systems, as well as racks in this world.
And there is also a hidden trick with balanced inputs and outputs, because a balanced input, for example, can turn into a single-ended invisibly.
It's not fair
This is perfectly normal for professional equipment, but unacceptable for high-end.
If the high end is balanced, it must be balanced through and through.
It's very expensive and difficult, but that's exactly what high end means.
And this is good and right.

All this is not necessary for small non-special rooms, single ended is completely OK for a high quality in such conditions.

What's funny is that it's obvious.
It is enough to look at high-end class equipment.
In this class, there is fundamentally no unification of constructs.
Which means, among other things, that compact installations are not a requirement for such equipment.
Because unification is a sign of mass production, and mass production is a sign of cheapness.
And the world is diverse and in it not all consumers want mass-produced products.
It always has been and always will be.
And this is also good.

 

[thecheapseats]

just curious (I don't know the answer - don't follow consumer audio tech) - but has there ever been HEA balanced gear implemented at the lower -10dBv levels?...

the difference being, is that balanced pro-audio is always run at the elevated operating level of +4dBu...

 

[Scytales]

I have never understood why, when dealing with so-called "consumer audio level" and so-called "pro audio level", one has to mix up two different scales, dBu and dBV.

Why not just saying : pro audio level is + 4 dBu and consumer audio level is -7.78 dBu, or pro audio level is 1.78 dBV and consumer audio -10 dBV for the sake of comparison ?

As for going balanced or not on a specific piece of equipment set-up, if said equipment meets the design goals with unbalanced connection, why bother ?

By the way, taking signal level into account, I should add that one of the reason pro audio frequently goes balanced, or, more precisely, symmetrical or differential transmission (one can goes balanced without two symmetrical signals in opposite phase), is perhaps because it's easier and cheaper to build symmetrical outputs from two low level amplifier stages powered from low voltage supplies instead of one single output stage living off higher supply voltages.

 

[thecheapseats]

I have never understood why, when dealing with so-called "consumer audio level" and so-called "pro audio level", one has to mix up two different scales, dBu and dBV.

I have no idea and I'd actually like to know what the history is concerning this (using the two different designation measurements).... I haven't bothered looking it up - recently anyway... I recall something about fidelity but have long forgotten what that was...

maybe the history of early shortwave radio from studio to transmitter? - or 48v telco systems? had something to do with it all?... I can't recall...

aligning +4dbu audio gear for 0vu has always been using 1kHz @ 1.288v... doesn't -10 dBv run at higher impedences?... again, I have long forgotten a lot of this stuff...

 

[arvidb]

i'm gonna put it out there that rca is fine for most domestic uses of reasonable length

like who is running distances that requires xlr?

as people have said here XLR and TRS is good when its good to be 100% sure there's no interference between one device and another but that would be about it

i do get that up to a certain point XLR makes sense in between key devices like preamp and power amp

Cable length is mostly an issue when the problem is RF interference pickup. However there's also the (separate!) issue of ground loops. Take the typical desktop setup with a stationary, grounded PC as a source, an external audio interface connected via USB, and powered, grounded, monitor speakers. The PC generates noise on its ground, which is also the USB ground, and therefore also the ground of any single ended output of the audio interface. Connect the monitors to the audio interface via RCA and you've made the noise a part of the audio signal, regardless of the length of the cable.

 

[AnalogSteph]

I have never understood why, when dealing with so-called "consumer audio level" and so-called "pro audio level", one has to mix up two different scales, dBu and dBV.

Pro audio is very old and started out using 600 ohm impedance-matched connections, inherited from the then well-established telephone system. (0 dBu = 1 mW into 600 ohms.) That would have been the status quo in like the 1940s. Later the field shifted towards voltage matching with low-impedance outputs und high-impedance inputs, but the damage was already done so to speak.

Home hi-fi was largely nonexistent prior to the 1950s and had never had much to do with controlled impedance either, so dBV would have been the natural default choice here. In fact, it wouldn't even have been that but rather linear V or mV.

 

[PHD]

No benefits for balanced interconnects when cable lengths are less than 10ft, which is the case for most home audio systems...

 

[Oristo]

never use anything but balanced when I have the choice

Balanced interconnects are about common mode rejection.
Actually achieving wide band common mode rejection is hard.
Many transformer sold for common mode rejection measure poorly,
despite good galvanic isolation. Back in the day, common mode rejection
was mostly about AC power, 50 or 60Hz for terrestrial and typically 400Hz for avionics.

Vacuum tubes generate their own noise. Replacing AC filament power with well-filtered DC can help,
although AC null adjustment can be quite effective, but with AC noise removed, thermal and shot noise
are still prominent and uncorrelated; balanced vacuum tube circuits will have twice the noise of single ended.
Matched vacuum tubes are never perfectly matched and liable to increasing mismatch with age.

Decent quality low cost op amps are a recent development.
Balanced interconnects are now more about wide band common mode rejection, which is hard to achieve.
Seemingly trivial component positioning and routing (track, via and backplane) changes are easily measurable.
Relatively short interconnect cable runs can be effective antennas. Oxide at cable connectors can act as semiconductor diodes,
rectifying RF AKA crystal radios. While RF signals are inaudible, many digital devices employ spread spectrum clocks
to pass FCC EMC requirements while generating substantial RF energy, and spread spectrum frequency modulation
typically is audible. Consequently, balanced interconnects are more relevant for modern consumer audio,
but reliable CMRR data is wanted.

 

[Vacceo]

In the future, I hope that connecting your source to an active speaker with and RJ45 becomes mainstream and sort of universal.