Why do Yamaha integrated amplifiers have so much more power than other brands?

[maxp779]

For example the A-S701 is 100w per channel into 8 ohms. And it can be had for 439GBP.
Im looking at a higher end Marantz PM8006 and it is only 70w per channel into 8 ohms and costs more than twice as much.
Is there some aspect to this im not seeing or something? The features look pretty similar overall.

 

[mhardy6647]

The difference between 70 watts and 100 watts is nominal (about 1.5 dB if I pushed the right buttons on the calculator).
The difference in price may reflect the "features set" of the two components, the physical parts quality (active and passive circuit parts and/or the chassis/hardware)... or it might just reflect the two brands' differential philosophies in terms of what the market will bear.

Also, where are the two components made? Labo(u)r costs vary greatly across Asia/the world.

 

[Vini darko]

Could also be the way they're being measured. Or badge premium.

 

[nemanja_t]

Marantz should be Japan made...

 

[mhardy6647]

Marantz should be Japan made...
View attachment 70515

That would be my guess -- and the Yamaha probably (??) Malaysia.

Could also be the way they're being measured. Or badge premium.

That is a good point. I miss the days of the US FTC 1974 "RMS watts" power reporting requirements -- silly though they may have been in terms of the real world. The preconditioning requirement was a tough hurdle. I reckon it would leave many modern amplifiers in a state of smoking rubble (or they'd simply regurgitate and shut themselves down to avoid self-immolation).

(and, yes, I know that "RMS watt" is a misnomer -- tell it to the FTC in 1974 )

EDIT: PS they should both be pretty good and capable amplifiers, I would opine

 

[JohnYang1997]

Yamaha seems to run on +-42V
70W to 8ohm seems to run on +-35V
There's certainly one step between the two. 1.5dB may felt small that's because it's dB scale. It not great great difference but +-42(84v) over +-35
(70v)are definitely two different levels in design consideration. Let alone yamaha is very cheap in price.

 

[Billy Budapest]

Marantz should be Japan made...
View attachment 70515

I believe that only the high end Marantz units are made in Japan.

 

[tmtomh]

Took a quick look at the specs and from what I can tell, the wattage ratings are from the same measurements - 20Hz-20kHz RMS, neither one rated based on peak power into 1kHz - and the distortion specs are functionally identical as well (0.02% vs 0.19%).

Edit: Good point about the voltage, @JohnYang1997 - thanks!

 

[ta240]

I believe that only the high end Marantz units are made in Japan.

So, basically what is happening here is a higher end Marantz that is made in Japan is being compared cost wise with a lower end Yamaha that is made in Malaysia. Yamaha makes a 90 watt unit that is $3,500 so price per watt doesn't really equate in the audio world.

Sure, Marantz makes lower end components that have even less power but every manufacture doesn't just chase the output numbers customers. Even the companies that build Hypex and Purifi based amps are offering more buffer options to try to set themselves apart.

 

[tmtomh]

So, basically what is happening here is a higher end Marantz that is made in Japan is being compared cost wise with a lower end Yamaha that is made in Malaysia. Yamaha makes a 90 watt unit that is $3,500 so price per watt doesn't really equate in the audio world.

Sure, Marantz makes lower end components that have even less power but every manufacture doesn't just chase the output numbers customers. Even the companies that build Hypex and Purifi based amps are offering more buffer options to try to set themselves apart.

Approx $800 for the Yamaha vs approx $1100 for the Marantz. Perhaps one or two steps up in the line, but not low-end vs high-end.

And where it’s made doesn’t necessarily correlate with low or high end either.

 

[mhardy6647]

And where it’s made doesn’t necessarily correlate with low or high end either.

No but it does have economic, and thus price (and/or profit margin) implications.

 

[tmtomh]

No but it does have economic, and thus price (and/or profit margin) implications.

Absolutely.

 

[PETERPAN]

Approx $800 for the Yamaha vs approx $1100 for the Marantz. Perhaps one or two steps up in the line, but not low-end vs high-end.

And where it’s made doesn’t necessarily correlate with low or high end either.

Why do most manufacturers not publish their current delivery? Only a few do, and so called reviewers
don't even mention as if it does not exist. To me it is very important, mor than the WATTS

 

[RayDunzl]

Why do most manufacturers not publish their current delivery?

How would you measure it?

One wave cycle?

At what frequency?

Continuous?

What load?

DC (step) output and observe the droop and subsequent ripple? (not all amplifiers are DC coupled - some may shut down with a request for DC output)

---

Existing specification should give you an indication of the continuous delivery::

Current = Voltage / Speaker Impedance

Or

Current = square root of (Watt * Ohms)

 

[Willem]

There was an extensive test of the earlier and very similar AS 700 in an Australian publication that has now been bought by Whathifi. The Australian test had extensive measurements showing excellent measured performance that exceeded the published power and other specifications. We don't know sales numbers but Yamaha may well be selling far more, and hence benefitting from economies of scale. These Yamaha amplifiers are also quite old designs, so R&D costs would have been limited.

 

[PETERPAN]

How would you measure it?

One wave cycle?

At what frequency?

Continuous?

What load?

DC (step) output and observe the droop and subsequent ripple? (not all amplifiers are DC coupled - some may shut down with a request for DC output)

---

Existing specification should give you an indication of the continuous delivery::

Current = Voltage / Speaker Impedance

Or

Current = square root of (Watt * Ohms)

How come we have dfferent current delivery for the same watts in deferent amp designs, how do they measure that and how do they come by that? I have seen big transformers and high capacitors rating in one amp and the other smaller, all with the same wattage. Am asking why that information is provided by some and not others. I want to see the wattage and current delivery to help make a decision.

 

[Willem]

My proxy measure to judge if the power supply of an AB amplifier is beefy enough is the weight of the amplifier.

 

[tmtomh]

My proxy measure to judge if the power supply of an AB amplifier is beefy enough is the weight of the amplifier.

Yes, I think a lot of us have used that as a rough guide.

 

[RayDunzl]

How come we have dfferent current delivery for the same watts

You don't, Watts = Volts delivered by the amplifier across the speaker load. Change the volts or load - which will change the current demand - to change watts.

I have seen big transformers and high capacitors rating in one amp and the other smaller, all with the same wattage.

Bigger transformer with the same ratio can (probably) deliver more current to the storage capacitor in a traditional design (I don't know SMPS)

Output section draws from the capacitors.

Same voltage (maintained by current flow) across same load = same watts.

Am asking why that information is provided by some and not others.

Some amplifiers will have the ability to drive lower impedances. That will require more current for a given output voltage. Some amplifiers may be specified down to a 1 ohm load. That requires more current from the storage capacitors, so the capacitors will be "bigger" and the transformer will have to deliver more current to them to keep them charged between charge cycles. The capacitors only charge near the peaks of the AC power input, and drain during the rest of the AC power cycle.

Sometimes some of this information is given, more often when the amplifier is designed for more difficult loads and, perhaps, high power output.

Mine are specified for 2 ohm operation and 1400W. That would imply 53volts rms, 26.5 amps, which is a rather demanding spec. Maximum voltage across the speakers is specified as 138Vpk

I want to see the wattage and current delivery to help make a decision.

You'd also want to know the demand of your speaker load, the sensitivity of the speaker, and the volume levels at which you expect to drive them.

Note: 1 watt is usually pretty loud. You probably couldn't listen to a 1 watt tone very long without ear discomfort.

My proxy measure to judge if the power supply of an AB amplifier is beefy enough is the weight of the amplifier.

50+ pounds per channel (monoblock) here. Spec says 68, but I think it's wrong.

It has a "big" transformer, but the storage caps aren't particularly large. It has a regulated voltage supply (uncommon) for the rails, so less dependency on low ripple from the capacitors, I presume.

My other amp is a more basic design, has much more filter capacitance (unregulated).

 

[Head_Unit]

some aspect to this im not seeing

Well, the Marantz is rated 100W into 4 ohms, the Yamaha is "not rated" which does not speak well about the robustness of the Yamaha to deliver power into real speaker loads* compared to the Marantz. The Marantz also has a DAC?

I think for this product category, the focus is on the SOUND and the power output comes out however it comes out. It is not the primary thing. And anyway, to have a notable difference in power, you need to like triple the 4 ohm rating.

*(which are NOT resistors! Therefore the 4 ohm power is most important even if the speakers are 8)