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Why do subwoofers have better bass than large speakers?

Georgios

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Basically I'm looking at Neumann KH750 for my KH310. I can't help but post this for the question. Subwoofer KH750 can go down to 18 Hz , ± 3 dB. Well, KH420 that has same 10" driver can only go to 26, ± 3 dB. Why? Obviously I will go for KH750. Just curious.
 

Frgirard

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Basically I'm looking at Neumann KH750 for my KH310. I can't help but post this for the question. Subwoofer KH750 can go down to 18 Hz , ± 3 dB. Well, KH420 that has same 10" driver can only go to 26, ± 3 dB. Why? Obviously I will go for KH750. Just curious.
18 hz with with which spl level?
if you hear 18hz you are an Avenger.

the bass performance of the kh750 are inferior to the kh310.
weird idea!
 

Eetu

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The KH750 is a bit output limited as mentioned above.
kh750_MaxSpl_510.gif
Max SPL with 10%/3%/1% THD

I would go for the KH810 instead.

But generally speaking, driver parameters differ and together with design choices such as port tuning frequency, cabinet size, DSP... they can be optimized for subwoofer or (mid)woofer use.

I'm sure people can chime in with more technicalities.
 
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Georgios

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18 hz with with which spl level?
if you hear 18hz you are an Avenger.

the bass performance of the kh750 are inferior to the kh310.
weird idea!
Are you indicating Neumann is tricking customers by listing specs differently on their website? KH310 is recommended and being used by many KH310 users. Not my intention or interests to debate my hearing or human 6th sense etc, please take a detour, thanks.
 

Frgirard

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Are you indicating Neumann is tricking customers by listing specs differently on their website? KH310 is recommended and being used by many KH310 users. Not my intention or interests to debate my hearing or human 6th sense etc, please take a detour, thanks.
no, you read what you want and Neumann make business.
Neumann sell products for professional who are connoisseurs, not for audiophiles who don't even know the limits of their hearing.

it's was a time Neumann or K+H published an article of the avantage to extend the low frequency on a ported subwoofer: reduce the increase in group delay in an area where human hearing is not very sensitive.it is still necessary to be interested in the product that one wishes to acquire.


with my k+h o300, I had a kh810. I sold the kh810 and bought two KH420. I dared to do a hearing test under 20Hz and I hear nothing at the usual spl (95/100 db peak) level as predicted by academic literature.

with the room gain, the kh810 reached 15Hz easly. a beautiful curve.
 
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Georgios

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no, you read what you want and Neumann make business.
Neumann sell products for professional who are connoisseurs, not for audiophiles who don't even know the limits of their hearing.

it's was a time Neumann or K+H published an article of the avantage to extend the low frequency on a ported subwoofer: reduce the increase in group delay in an area where human hearing is not very sensitive.it is still necessary to be interested in the product that one wishes to acquire.


with my k+h o300, I had a kh810. I sold the kh810 and bought two KH420. I dared to do a hearing test under 20Hz and I hear nothing at the usual spl (95/100 db peak) level as predicted by academic literature.

with the room gain, the kh810 reached 15Hz easly. a beautiful curve.
LMAO, so you mean every professional who in your theory is entitled to buy Neumann must have measured their hearings? Maybe have ears cleaned up as well?
YMMV, your hearting test means nothing to me or anyone else, everybody is at different age and in different physical condition, you cannot use your test result to represent everyone else' hearing or talk about human being limits.
Like my original post, I'm simply asking the explanation behind two speaker models specs, not some personal experience especially in such a tone. Not a good way for discussion.
 

DSJR

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Maybe what is meant is that adding a pair of subs to KH300's helped bass distortion in-room and max level, rather than extending the response down to subsonics?
 

mcdn

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Looking at the data and diagrams on the Neumann site suggests the kh750 doesn’t add a lot to the kh310 in terms of max SPL at 50Hz or below at 3% THD. the KH310 is a big speaker, and the KH750 is a small subwoofer, so it’s not surprising they’d be close in bass performance.

Adding subs will help even out bass modes in a room, and you get 6dB more bass by adding them if you don’t high-pass the KH310s, so that could be a benefit. If you have space and want really deep bass, you would want bigger subs than the KH750.
 

dasdoing

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It has been a while but me, someone who was always using pro gear, when I searched for a subwoofer I couldn't find any satisfying one in the pro market. bang for buck is just bad. went with a Kef Kube 12b, but would probably chose a closed SVS if I live in the states. the only thing you gain with a recomended pro subwoofer is easier integration..
 

sigbergaudio

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Basically I'm looking at Neumann KH750 for my KH310. I can't help but post this for the question. Subwoofer KH750 can go down to 18 Hz , ± 3 dB. Well, KH420 that has same 10" driver can only go to 26, ± 3 dB. Why? Obviously I will go for KH750. Just curious.

How do you know it's the same driver? Other than that's it's a result of different DSP tuning and/or different volume in the cabinet for the driver, likely smaller in the KH420. Also the KH420 appear to be ported while the KH750 is not.
 

Joachim Herbert

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Not the same driver for sure. Main benefit is dsp via MA1 for all non dsp Neumanns (120/310/420). I use them with KH120.
 

Frgirard

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LMAO, so you mean every professional who in your theory is entitled to buy Neumann must have measured their hearings? Maybe have ears cleaned up as well?
YMMV, your hearting test means nothing to me or anyone else, everybody is at different age and in different physical condition, you cannot use your test result to represent everyone else' hearing or talk about human being limits.
Like my original post, I'm simply asking the explanation behind two speaker models specs, not some personal experience especially in such a tone. Not a good way for discussion.
do you know that?

 

DJBonoBobo

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Like @Joachim Herbert said, the KH750 (+MA1) has advantages as an upgrade to the 310 no other sub can offer. If it is too small/not loud enough you either need 2 of them or a different approach like a MiniDSP.

BTW, the 810 can play 2 times as loud as the 750, even though it also has a 10 inch driver - but a much bigger bass reflex cabinet.
 

Recluse-Animator

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Looking at the data and diagrams on the Neumann site suggests the kh750 doesn’t add a lot to the kh310 in terms of max SPL at 50Hz or below at 3% THD. the KH310 is a big speaker, and the KH750 is a small subwoofer, so it’s not surprising they’d be close in bass performance.
Sorry for nitpicking, but KH310 is definitely not a big speaker. On the contrary it's one of the smallest 3 way speakers on the market.
 
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Georgios

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I should have mentioned my room which is very small, so KH750 is a better fit with closed cabinet design rather than ported one. Although I don’t feel KH310 is big but KH810 is definitely too big.
And you guys are right, probably not the same driver just because they are both 10". Still my doubt is why subwoofers always achieve lower frequency response than normal say 3-way speakers? Maybe 3-way speakers need to take care the whole balance of the sound?
 

sarumbear

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Maybe, lol. Why can’t they just make one stop speakers? So they can extend product lines and sell more subwoofers?
They do :)


 

mcdn

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Sorry for nitpicking, but KH310 is definitely not a big speaker. On the contrary it's one of the smallest 3 way speakers on the market
It‘s all relative, Neumann make 3 smaller models and 1 larger one. Most people buy 6” two ways, most of which are smaller. But yeah “not small” would be a better description than “big”
 

sigbergaudio

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Still my doubt is why subwoofers always achieve lower frequency response than normal say 3-way speakers? Maybe 3-way speakers need to take care the whole balance of the sound?

A bit unclear to me if you are still discussing this specific case or if you are asking about subwoofers in general? Subwoofers often have drivers even better suited for low end extension. A driver that is great for 300hz does not look the same as a driver that is great for 20hz. Subwoofers also often have larger internal volume for the bass driver(s) than most speakers (makes them more efficient and extends the low end), and finally they are typically active with DSP, which means that they use EQ/filters to adjust the response to add more low end extension than would otherwise be possible in an identical passive speaker.
 
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